The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

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The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Hawkesy »

The view from Italy, by Guido Santevecchi

"Italians lose wars as if they were football matches, and football matches as if they were wars", said Sir Winston Churchill. On matters of war and politics, he was most certainly an expert. The fact is that, ever since the fall of the Roman Empire, we have been luckier at calcio than at warfare. But now it seems that, in addition to being Europe's top military power, Britain is home to its dominant football clubs. Is this real glory?

Let us have a look at the Italian sides' performances this season in the Champions League. We had four at the beginning of the campaign (and I note you use a term that we in Italy reserve for military operations - Sir Winston should have thought about that).

Lazio have been struggling for financial survival since Sergio Cragnotti, who bought the club for 100bn lire in 1992, left in 2001. Their finances have much improved since then but they remain a decent, middle-of-the-league sort of side and really had no chance.

Milan are an old team full of old glories: a band of brothers, half old Italians like Paolo Maldini and half young Brazilians such as Kaka and Pato. Everybody knew they only had the puff to play 10 games at full speed and that is what they did. Honour to Arsenal all the same.

Roma are a brilliant side. Their midfielders - Francesco Totti, Simone Perrotta, both of whom will be missing tomorrow, and Daniele De Rossi, all world champions - are outstanding. And they have Aquilani, whose shot resembles Gerrard's in its strength and devastating accuracy. I recommend Manchester United to keep more than one eye on him.

But then come Internazionale, the key to Italy's decline in Europe this season. They are the league champions, yet they field just one native player, Marco Materazzi, whose name is all too often associated with red cards (though not always deservedly so, as at Liverpool).

And therein lies the story, and the difference between the impact of foreign players on English football and on Italian. I am convinced that the overwhelming presence of foreign players dilutes the natural, Italian style of rock-like defence and a strong sense of cohesion. There was a time, when they were carrying off European Cups in the 1960s, when Inter had Giuliano Sarti, Tarcisio Burgnich, Giacinto Facchetti, Aristide Guarnieri and Armando Picchi as defenders and Sandro Mazzola and Mario Corso as forwards. Today, they have a wild bunch of international stars.

The last time Inter played Liverpool before this season was in 1965. Mazzola still remembers the Reds' fans singing You'll Never Walk Alone at Anfield. There, the score was 3-1. Before the second leg, at San Siro, Mazzola went up to the announcer's box and gave him an old Louis Armstrong recording of When The Saints Go Marchin' In. He said: "At the end of the game, when we've won 3-0, I want you to put this on." That was indeed the result. Could you imagine Zlatan Ibrahimovic doing the same thing now?

In stark contrast, the injection of foreign talent has worked to strengthen English clubs. Charismatic managers from France, Spain and Portugal have done nothing to tone down the natural aggression of the English style. But they have brought greater order and sparkle to the game - more of what we call geometrie. Above all, it seems to me that foreigners in London, Manchester and Liverpool have diluted the famous off-the-pitch excesses of English sides.

Arsenal, with no more than a couple of English players, may at first seem indistinguishable from Inter - a true expression of globalised football. But there is a difference and it is not a negligible one. London is a truly globalised city and a hub for financial markets. It is an expression of your mentality. And that mentality is not the Italian one. Which is perhaps why Inter's foreign legion is less like a disciplined platoon than a band of mercenaries, ready to concede in adversity.

Is this the right year for one of the English big four? Roma seem too lightweight and elegant. The major obstacle would appear to be Barcelona but it is still four to one: four powerful English clubs versus one Spanish one.

The only risk could come from the English superiority complex. Mazzola again: "That night at Anfield Bill Shankly took our manager, Helenio Herrera, aside and said to him: 'You've trained in Portugal. Tell me something about Benfica [the other European Cup finalists], seeing as how you guys are out of it now'. Herrera returned to the team roaring: 'You've made me look like a total fucking idiot!' Shankly had just committed a very serious mistake. By saying what he did, he recharged our batteries."

If I were in Chelsea's dressing room ahead of the game with Fenerbahce, perhaps I'd remind the players of Churchill's quip, if only to avoid a senseless, glorious charge like that of the Light Brigade at Balaclava. Better to play an orderly game with the Turks.

Guido Santevecchi is London correspondent of the Italian daily Corriere della Sera
The view from Spain, by Sid Lowe

Worryingly for the Spanish people, it seems likely that the closest the nation is going to get to this season's Champions League final is if the referee is appointed from the Iberian peninsula, as happened when Liverpool faced Milan in Istanbul.

As Liverpool, Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal embark on their quarter-finals tonight and tomorrow, Real Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla will be forced to watch on television. Barcelona alone are involved and they are undergoing a crisis so profound that what was initially seen as an easy tie against Schalke is suddenly being approached with trepidation.

But if the recent Champions League exits of Real Madrid and Sevilla hurt, the dismal showing of Spanish sides in the Uefa Cup somehow cuts even deeper in terms of national pride. It is all well and good having three or four behemoths - clubs with massive budgets and star names - going a long way in Europe's top competition, but the second-tier tournament is the real barometer of a country's strength in depth.

That was, at least, what the Spanish insisted last season, when the earlier departures of Real Madrid and Barcelona from the Champions League found compensation in the huge success of their clubs in the Uefa Cup, where three of the four semi-finalists were from La Liga, with Espanyol facing Sevilla at Hampden Park in the final.

This season there have been no such crumbs of comfort, no Uefa Cup success with which to paper over the cracks. Although Bolton, Everton and Tottenham only lasted one more round, that was little consolation to the Spanish, now left with only Getafe as survivors. Rather than comfort, instead there has been a recognition that something is rotten in the state of Spain, with one newspaper declaring that the time has come to "sound the alarm". The self-declared "league of stars", the greatest in the world, is in the midst of a dark age.

Real Madrid lead La Liga by a six-point margin, yet have lost five of their last nine games; they have, in fact, lost more than half of their games since the turn of the year. That could be taken as a sign of competitiveness, an indication that every club in Spain has something to offer, that every side can win on their day - proof the league is strong all the way down: certainly no strolls against Derby County.

The past decade suggests a league with more variety, a greater depth of competition than in England, where the same four clubs dominate the Champions League places season after season. While Barça and Madrid are still pre-eminent, as they have been for the best part of 50 years, Valencia and Deportivo La Coruña have each won the league in the past decade, Sevilla went into the final day of last season still in with a chance, and Celta Vigo, Betis, Real Sociedad, Mallorca, Osasuna and Zaragoza have all finished in the top four. This season Racing Santander and Atlético Madrid could yet do so too.

But few in Spain believe that is the case any more. That Real Madrid command such a lead in La Liga and yet capitulated in the Champions League tells them as much, and it has been confirmed by the fact that they have now gone out at the first knockout stage, after easy groups, in each of the past four years.

When Roma defeated Bernd Schuster's side at the Bernabéu, one headline declared: "Europe demands more" and another: "Too mediocre for Europe." "What used to be the league of stars," ran a lament in El Mundo, "is now losing ground to other leagues - and not just the Premier League, which is light years ahead in terms of economic power, attractive football and a level of competitiveness." A columnist in the sports daily As wrote: "We have been satisfied with our domestic experience but the rest of Europe, England in particular, travels at a different speed."

In fact, the Spanish have not actually been that satisfied with their domestic experience. La Liga has been fairly turgid over the past two years. As the former Real player Martín Vázquez put it in the first half of last term: "The thing about Madrid games is that nothing happens. Nothing at all."

Since the start of 2008, Madrid's early season form is long forgotten, Barça are plummeting into crisis, Valencia are a caricature of a club and Sevilla have been unable to recover properly from the death of Antonio Puerta or Juande Ramos's departure to Tottenham.

Racing Santander are fifth and on course for their best-ever finish, but even delighted Racing fans know that if their team is riding so high there must be something wrong with the rest. As a former Spain coach, Javier Clemente, puts it: "Madrid and Barça don't offer a thing." And a pessimistic editorial adds: "There's too much bad football and not enough good results, and that's the perfect recipe for Spanish football to die a death."
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by diegom »

WANK
WANK
WANK


All I know is Italia World cup champions. Like All the players in the 06 World cup team played in Serie A
Yeah maybe Serie A teams have struggled this year in the Champs league, but who are the current EUFA Champions until June 08????
MILAN
And where they play????
SERIE A

Now fark off with these useless, pointless comparisons!
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by katsouranis3 »

diegom wrote:WANK
WANK
WANK


All I know is Italia World cup champions. Like All the players in the 06 World cup team played in Serie A
Yeah maybe Serie A teams have struggled this year in the Champs league, but who are the current EUFA Champions until June 08????
MILAN
And where they play????
SERIE A

Now fark off with these useless, pointless comparisons!
bit of a joke how u pretend to be this awesome italian supporter but the only league you watch is the premierleague
****you play 4 the game.. not the occasion
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Pinturicchio »

katsouranis3 wrote:
diegom wrote:WANK
WANK
WANK


All I know is Italia World cup champions. Like All the players in the 06 World cup team played in Serie A
Yeah maybe Serie A teams have struggled this year in the Champs league, but who are the current EUFA Champions until June 08????
MILAN
And where they play????
SERIE A

Now fark off with these useless, pointless comparisons!
bit of a joke how u pretend to be this awesome italian supporter but the only league you watch is the premierleague
:lol:
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Hawkesy »

diegom wrote:WANK
WANK
WANK


All I know is Italia World cup champions. Like All the players in the 06 World cup team played in Serie A
Yeah maybe Serie A teams have struggled this year in the Champs league, but who are the current EUFA Champions until June 08????
MILAN
And where they play????
SERIE A

Now fark off with these useless, pointless comparisons!
Nice intelligent debate there, sorry was the piece a little bit too high brow for you. Do you need the comic book translation.

There was me thinking I was posting a balanced piece written by experts in the respective leagues, people who watch the leagues for a living. Silly me, you know more than both of them.

One thing I do know, it's UEFA. :?
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by diegom »

katsouranis3 wrote:
diegom wrote:WANK
WANK
WANK


All I know is Italia World cup champions. Like All the players in the 06 World cup team played in Serie A
Yeah maybe Serie A teams have struggled this year in the Champs league, but who are the current EUFA Champions until June 08????
MILAN
And where they play????
SERIE A

Now fark off with these useless, pointless comparisons!
bit of a joke how u pretend to be this awesome italian supporter but the only league you watch is the premierleague



Pfffft, ok junior!
:roll:

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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by ozzie owl »

The debate over which league is the strongest will go on for ever. However the facts are that as a footballer producing nation England is in slow decline. The EPL is dominated by overseas players in most areas,especially in creative midfielders and goal scorers. The clubs and the administrators have ignored junior development to the point where English clubs are raiding overseas youht set ups, to plunder the worlds best young talent. Armed with TV multi pound funds, the EPL is harking back to the old days of the British Empire and pillaging the rest. However it has come at a price the decline in local talent and the decline of the national side.

For production of technically gifted, flexible and tactically astude footballers SeriaA and La Liga rule well ahead of the EPL. As a marketing and excitement the EPL wins hands down. I am English born but prefer La Liga in front of the other two,only because it is more attacting than Seria A.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

good article from Santevecchi, disagree about us having no chance in Cl though. We drew with Real Madrid and pick up 5 pts. we had every chance and if Radu, Bianchi and Dabo were playing for us then, it wouldve been us going through.

that other article was better though, you know the one that Chris bloke wrote, fucking legend that guy is
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Roman Gladiator 04 »

Didnt Roma beat Real in the 1st knockout stage.. and here is Ballotta with the excuses why they didnt win and they could have if they had bianchi.. etc.

yeh no worries :?
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

Roman Gladiator 04 wrote:Didnt Roma beat Real in the 1st knockout stage.. and here is Ballotta with the excuses why they didnt win and they could have if they had bianchi.. etc.

yeh no worries :?
whats my comment got to do with Riomma :?

your a fukn :clown:
Hawkesy wrote:
Lazio have been struggling for financial survival since Sergio Cragnotti, who bought the club for 100bn lire in 1992, left in 2001. Their finances have much improved since then but they remain a decent, middle-of-the-league sort of side and really had no chance.
would a decent, middle-of the league sort finish 3rd and qualify for the CL in the first place?? IMO if we actually did something during the summer mercato we wouldve had every chance to go thru
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by pires7 »

Roman Gladiator 04 wrote:Didnt Roma beat Real in the 1st knockout stage.. and here is Ballotta with the excuses why they didnt win and they could have if they had bianchi.. etc.

yeh no worries :?
the fact that marco was playing in these games signifies their problems. You can't really do that much on the first attempt without a bit of luck. Fener and Shalke have done well. But to get in a group with Werder and Real was pretty much curtains from the start, plus they blew it by playing thier best game v the team they could have tanked against.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

pires7 wrote:
Roman Gladiator 04 wrote:Didnt Roma beat Real in the 1st knockout stage.. and here is Ballotta with the excuses why they didnt win and they could have if they had bianchi.. etc.

yeh no worries :?
the fact that marco was playing in these games signifies their problems. You can't really do that much on the first attempt without a bit of luck. Fener and Shalke have done well. But to get in a group with Werder and Real was pretty much curtains from the start, plus they blew it by playing thier best game v the team they could have tanked against.
Ok firstly we beat Werder and they failed to progress

- the killer was when we lost to olympiakos at home who played poorly

- we had one of the worst injury problems Ive ever seen.

- Only players signed in summer were Meghni from Serie B, Del Nero from Serie B, Kolarov from OFK Beograd and Scaloni who has left already the guy was useless.

- Since then players have returned from injury. We have signed Radu (absloute star, watch out for him in the Romania side at Euro), Bianchi (added to our strikeforce) and Dabo (added stregth and depth to the midfield which has allowed Ledesma to hit some form again)

- Even Ballotta has looked good lately

Watch out for Lazio next season cos I'm excited :D , this side can go places

and Riomma for all your cash may I ask what the fuck have you done that makes you so much better than us??
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

Good articles....not exactly a completely unbiased piece but very good none the less. I do agree that England is ahead in terms of tactics, competitiveness, and possibly even player quality. I still think that La Liga has more excitement and "wow" factor if you will....more flashy football, tricks here and there etc. I know theres a lot of Italian guys out there and HONESTLY nothing against you guys or your league at all but I find it boring. As for player development though Italy is way ahead of both Spain and England, even though I believe Spain is starting to develop some awesome young talent as well. In the end it is all subjective, to the person's opinion, the time in which the debate is taking place, after all what exactly is the criteria for "best".
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Roman Gladiator 04 »

Who knocked out Madrid in CL??
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

We could talk about this until the cows come home and yes just for those who don't already know I am a Madrid fan and yes we did get knocked out by an Italian team (Roma). I wasn't saying that Italian teams aren't good because they certainly are I just find the way they generally play quite boring, for example, I can't ever see Real Madrid defending a result much like what Roma did at the Bernabeu where Roma sat back and played on the counter, smart yes, exciting no (not in my opinion at least). Good luck against Manchester United by the way LOL you'll need it. I think Lazio could do a better job to be honest. They're one of the few Italian teams going around that don't bore me after 20 minutes.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

Madridista612 wrote:We could talk about this until the cows come home and yes just for those who don't already know I am a Madrid fan and yes we did get knocked out by an Italian team (Roma). I wasn't saying that Italian teams aren't good because they certainly are I just find the way they generally play quite boring, for example, I can't ever see Real Madrid defending a result much like what Roma did at the Bernabeu where Roma sat back and played on the counter, smart yes, exciting no (not in my opinion at least). Good luck against Manchester United by the way LOL you'll need it. I think Lazio could do a better job to be honest. They're one of the few Italian teams going around that don't bore me after 20 minutes.
as much as i hate Roma, and i really fucking do, theyre football is good to watch.

can i jsut ask, how much italian football do you watch?? cos obviously you dont have RAI and Setanta hardly covers much so you cant really judge our football.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

I don't have RAI, but I have more than enough to judge from with the 2 games a week that Setanta shows as well as the highlights package (let me tell you the highlights aren't very high at all) and the Champions League, I really don't find Roma's football entertaining at all ESPECIALLY the game against Real Madrid, so far this season I have seen coverage of Inter, AC Milan, Roma, Juventus, Lazio, Sampdoria, Empoli and Fiorentina and apart from Lazio which were generally entertaining games, 2-2 and 4-2 and Fiorentina who, play an entertaining level of football (for me the best in the Serie A) the rest were all completely crap, I have a friend who supports AC Milan and assures me I should keep watching, which I do in the hope that there will be some miraculous awakening, but no, plain and simple I find it so boring that I find myself wishing Blue Square Premier League was on instead.....they may not be high quality, but there's very little diving, no crowd violence and for a 5th division it has some decent football sometimes, having said that my preferences (from the major leagues that I've seen and follow) are:

1. La Liga
2. English Premier League
3. Dutch Eredivisie
4. Portuguese Superliga
5. Scottish Premier League
6. Le Championnat
7. Bundesliga
8. Serie A
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Blue Mastiff »

ballotta are you gonna put this clown in his place???

serie A in 8th position with the scots, nazi's and frog leagues all ahead of us.

your a joke.

you follow only one league wanker and one team.

i have my team in Naples and all other clubs in Italy and all of Europe cant wank off. I have no allegiance to any other clubs.
my heart only beats white and blue.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

You try and be polite and give an honest opinion but it just doesn't help, whatever I say if I don't agree with you people you're going to question my motives or sink to the lowest common denominator and insult me. It's true that my heart really lies with 1 team but I watch all Liverpool, the opponents of FC Barcelona every weekend, Ajax, Manchester United, Arsenal, Porto, Celtic, MSV Duisberg, Bayern, Marseille, Lyon games in order of preference and make sure I watch all Serie A games that have are shown on Setanta....of course sometimes I have to watch replays if teams coincide at the same time but usually I keep quite a good track of all those teams, not because I support them all, although in the case of Liverpool (I do support), Ajax (I also support) the rest I just have an affection for except for Manchester United, Arsenal, Bayern and Lyonwho I just find enjoyable to watch.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Rob Lozza »

This debate will never end...

On a side note, I recall a composite EPL team played a Serie A team in the mid or late 1990s. It may have been part of the FIGC's centenary celebrations. Final score was 1-1. Anyone else remember it?
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by delfino_1936 »

it's just that your opinion is ridiculous!!!!!!!

that list pretty much sums up how stupid your comment was. I think your a decent poster on the forum cause you have good things to say but that list was too far
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

Yes but it's ridiculous only because of you're bias....i'm sorry I REALLY don't like Serie A....play some flash football from time to time instead of this tactical battle crap that frankly does not get me going, i'd rather see Steven Gerrard crack a volley from 30 yards out or Raul finish a ball while being shouldered by 2 defenders than see someone dive in the box or outside the box and have a game decided by a free kick or penalty (and yes I know this is a huge generalisation and it happens in other leagues as well). The simple fact is, I find Serie A slow, I find that most of the possession is just teams playing the ball amongst each other until they bore the other team to death and they make a mistake....it's not my cup of tea.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by delfino_1936 »

Madridista612 wrote:Yes but it's ridiculous only because of you're bias....i'm sorry I REALLY don't like Serie A....play some flash football from time to time instead of this tactical battle crap that frankly does not get me going, i'd rather see Steven Gerrard crack a volley from 30 yards out or Raul finish a ball while being shouldered by 2 defenders than see someone dive in the box or outside the box and have a game decided by a free kick or penalty (and yes I know this is a huge generalisation and it happens in other leagues as well). The simple fact is, I find Serie A slow, I find that most of the possession is just teams playing the ball amongst each other until they bore the other team to death and they make a mistake....it's not my cup of tea.
but that's the thing. It isn't slow, it's not all tactically bullshit and the ball is not played amongst each other until the other team is bored to death.

The stats show, serie A was the highest scoring league out of all last season.
So stop with these ridiculous comment and get over La Liga, cause it definitely aint the best in the world.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

Blue Mastiff wrote:ballotta are you gonna put this clown in his place???
nah cbf

plus the last Real fan on this forum wasnt actually a real fan :lol:
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Juventino »

Serie A is teh bestest coz I said so.

There we go, debate over.
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

Juventino wrote:Serie A is teh bestest coz I said so.

There we go, debate over.
lol u r wrong br0

a-league is the best

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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by delfino_1936 »

marco ballotta wrote:
Blue Mastiff wrote:ballotta are you gonna put this clown in his place???
nah cbf

plus the last Real fan on this forum wasnt actually a real fan :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: when did the man behind the forumite tell you???
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Piola »

Rigoni 10 wrote:
marco ballotta wrote:
Blue Mastiff wrote:ballotta are you gonna put this clown in his place???
nah cbf

plus the last Real fan on this forum wasnt actually a real fan :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: when did the man behind the forumite tell you???
after i was stupid enough to pay him out :lol:

thought i drilled him good too, until i got a PM :oops:

me = :clown:
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pires7
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by pires7 »

change the topic to italians agree with other italians serie A is the best..........?
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Madridista612
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Re: The aged old Premier league v Seria A v La Liga debate

Post by Madridista612 »

nah cbf

plus the last Real fan on this forum wasnt actually a real fan
Die hard Real Madrid supporter, my family is from Madrid, grandpa had the opportunity to play for Real Madrid Castilla during the 50's....no easy feit and on my grandma's side, 1 of her relatives scored the 1st goal in the 1964 Euro Cup final....the 1 Spain won, so i'm not some bandwagon BECKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM fan.
The stats show, serie A was the highest scoring league out of all last season.
So stop with these ridiculous comment and get over La Liga, cause it definitely aint the best in the world.
Yeh and all the goals were boring as fuck.....once you define best for me and stipulate a criteria....then i'll debate the point with you.
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