Div. 1 Res. "the forgotten"

nugget66 · Post by **nugget66** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:22 am

Why are 1st. division reserves thought of so lowly by the league!!!
What i mean is last year less than 10% of games were covered by an official referee, crazy when you consider that div.8 (1st div.C-team) had 60-80%. Also leading goal scorers weren't tabled weekly the same as they were down through to div.10.
1st division is suppose to be the premier competition of the amateur league, which all clubs below it aspire to be in, isn't that why you have a relegation system? How then can the reserves of that competition be less important than a div.8 C-team game? Not Shaw of the logic there. Even when you understand that there is a referee crisis. Ask any div.1 club if they want a ref. for the C-team or the reserves i bet i know which one they would choose............................... & you don't need to be einstein .

Penalty11 · Post by **Penalty11** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:40 am

I'm not Einstein,but looking through the Leagues there are about 180 games on at the week-end.I believe the League has about 42 Referee's,now you might be able to work out the problem Mr Einstein!!!

Mr X · Post by **Mr X** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:01 am

Referees quite often do a C team game at 11:30a, then head off to do a Frist Team game at 3pm at a different ground, timewise they are unable to finish a reserve game then get to a first team game at a different ground.

Hawkesy · Post by **Hawkesy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:28 am

Penalty11 wrote:I'm not Einstein,but looking through the Leagues there are about 180 games on at the week-end.I believe the League has about 42 Referee's,now you might be able to work out the problem Mr Einstein!!!

What league is a higher standard? Div 10 or Dv 1 Reserves? Doesn't really take a genius does it Mr Einstein.

BULLDOG · Post by **BULLDOG** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:09 am

do the div 10 teams get promoted if they win the league?
do the reserves get their club promoted if they win the league?

web · Post by **web** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:23 am

Well brahma won div 10 last year.
div 10 teams dont play for promotion. just the satisfaction of winning over guys we have played against for the last 20 plus years.
we stay in div 10 as o/35s
and i cant remember too many officials doing our games last season

ozzie owl · Post by **ozzie owl** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:47 am

Simply it is down to lack of numbers.

It makes sense to cover a div 8 first team ahead of reserve games. More likely to be flash points and incidents in those games.

Remember this just look at the average of a referee in the amateur league and imagine how many will be there in ten years time.

rooboy1986 · Post by **rooboy1986** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:43 am

Comes down to $$$ also... More money for a lower div game (considered as a 'First Team'... less money for reserve games...

so what would you do as a ref? more money for less work? easy answer really... not too mention timewise they get a break until the 1st team games in the higher divs at 3pm.

OldRedback · Post by **OldRedback** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:26 am

Not too many officials at Brahma's over 35s games last year - heard that there should have been!!!!

web · Post by **web** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:35 am

No problems at our games.
no trouble whatsoever.

Shaken Not Stirred · Post by **Shaken Not Stirred** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:44 pm

I think the ressies is exactly what it spells out, a 2nd team for most clubs. A team that gets the scraps after the A's coach his picked his best 16 for the week. Sometimes you get a good squad, other times you don't, it depends on injuries for the A's and the depth within the club. The Ressies have no factor what so ever on whether a club gets promoted or demoted. Therefore with the league struggling to supply officials as it is and we should be glad we get a ref for the A's.

Let just leave the Ressies as what is has always been, a kick around for most players who are not keen or not good enough to play Aâ€™s but more or less play to support there club. Good on emâ€¦

Brown paper bag crew · Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:03 pm

OldRedback wrote:Not too many officials at Brahma's over 35s games last year - heard that there should have been!!!!

For what reason?

Rexie · Post by **Rexie** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:08 am

It is a dissapointment to hear some of you call the reserves leauge a second fiddle to the A's. That is a load of bollocks.

A club will not win promotion unless they have a strong B team to fall back on for depth. I have played both levels, and would gladly pull on the boots to prove my worth for the club in the Bs.

Look at all the clubs that generally win the leauge in the A grade, they are then backed up by a very competative B team. The reason for the depth is that when A grade regulars get injured, they then look to the B team to pull up players. If the depth is not there, then the team does not do well.

I know at the Downs that If our A team could not make a game, then mojority of our B team could step up for the game, and I would be very confident that they would be competative against any other A team.

Even other clubs in their hay day, Vale, Inter, Fulham, when they all won the Div 1 championship, the B games were all very competative.

Reserves league has no importance to a club, utter B*LLS@!T

nugget66 · Post by **nugget66** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:55 am

i totally agree Rexie, what i dont understand is why the reserve's of the 1st division are less important than C-team division 8 CRAZY???
I understand that there i a referee shortage, well fix it then & spend some of the $1,000,000.00 the SAASL have in the bank & poach federation ref's MONEY TALKS !!! I'm sick of hearing all the excuses!! there's a major problem in the amateur league & has been for a long time with referee's yet nothing is getting done to fix the problem. It can be fixed by paying more money!! state league referee's get $100.00 a game yet 1st division ref's $80.00 i know which one i'd be doing if it was my sunday. I'm shaw if you made it more attractive for referees you could fix the problem & it's not like we dont have the $$$$ to fix it.....

avenell_road · Post by **avenell_road** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:52 pm

The answer is quite simple and Mr X has already provided it.

It is not that Division 9 is considered more important than the higher reserve divisions. It is simply a matter of timing and logistics. A referee can do a C team game at one ground, have a rest, and then be fresh to do a first team game at another ground (well as "fresh" as a 55-60 y.o. ref can be).

You cannot expect a referee to do to back-to-back reserve/first team games and also expect a high level of performance. Especially given the age of most of the referees. Refereeing is strenuous on body and mind.

rooboy1986 · Post by **rooboy1986** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:11 pm

nugget66 wrote:i totally agree Rexie, what i dont understand is why the reserve's of the 1st division are less important than C-team division 8 CRAZY???
I understand that there i a referee shortage, well fix it then & spend some of the $1,000,000.00 the SAASL have in the bank & poach federation ref's MONEY TALKS !!! I'm sick of hearing all the excuses!! there's a major problem in the amateur league & has been for a long time with referee's yet nothing is getting done to fix the problem. It can be fixed by paying more money!! state league referee's get $100.00 a game yet 1st division ref's $80.00 i know which one i'd be doing if it was my sunday. I'm shaw if you made it more attractive for referees you could fix the problem & it's not like we dont have the $$$$ to fix it.....

Yes more money would help but i think there are a couple more important factors as to why refs (especially younger quality refs) don't want to ref amateurs...
1. Safety (no fencing, players race)
2. Facilities (no refs rooms, own shower, toilet etc) (also to do with safety)
3. Support (training, theory, from administration)

Trust me, i think even if you made it $150 each ref you still wouldn't get the quality refs, conditions are just as important!!

terriblygifted · Post by **terriblygifted** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:48 pm

Rexie wrote:It is a dissapointment to hear some of you call the reserves leauge a second fiddle to the A's. That is a load of bollocks.

A club will not win promotion unless they have a strong B team to fall back on for depth. I have played both levels, and would gladly pull on the boots to prove my worth for the club in the Bs.

Look at all the clubs that generally win the leauge in the A grade, they are then backed up by a very competative B team. The reason for the depth is that when A grade regulars get injured, they then look to the B team to pull up players. If the depth is not there, then the team does not do well.

I know at the Downs that If our A team could not make a game, then mojority of our B team could step up for the game, and I would be very confident that they would be competative against any other A team.

Even other clubs in their hay day, Vale, Inter, Fulham, when they all won the Div 1 championship, the B games were all very competative.

Reserves league has no importance to a club, utter B*LLS@!T

It's not just the SAASL clubs that have this mentality. The Feds are no different. Reserve teams are seen as purely cash cows, boys pay fees or bring in sponsors, generally have a bit of a spend over the bar and raise some capital, but at the end of the day, on the field, that doesn't matter one bit because they "don't determine whether a club is promoted or relegated".

I agree with you, it is B*LLS@!T

nugget66 · Post by **nugget66** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:54 pm

rooboy1986 seriously safety in all the time i've been associated with the amateur league i've only ever seen one referee assulted & one be threaten & a fence wouldnt have stopped that cause it was on the pitch. As for facilities i dont think that it would matter to the ref's if they had there own shower or not, but i'm convinced that if you paid them $150.00 a game we'd have them bust'in down the door!!!

rooboy1986 · Post by **rooboy1986** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:13 pm

nugget66 wrote:rooboy1986 seriously safety in all the time i've been associated with the amateur league i've only ever seen one referee assulted & one be threaten & a fence wouldnt have stopped that cause it was on the pitch. As for facilities i dont think that it would matter to the ref's if they had there own shower or not, but i'm convinced that if you paid them $150.00 a game we'd have them bust'in down the door!!!

I think you are lucky to have only witnessed one incident, i've witnessed 3 (one was a headbutt, the other was locking a ref in the change room and the last one was chasing a ref off the park... oh and one where the ref was spat on as he was walking off the ground...)

I think you are naive if you think that the refs having their own change room/shower doesn't matter... i'm sure it would make a difference!

And at $150 i still have to disagree, i don't think they would be busting the door down...

sorry mate just can't agree with anything you've written...

GULLY BOYZ · Post by **GULLY BOYZ** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:15 pm

Why cant the SAASL pay for a full referees and linesman course for say 2 representatives from EACH club. Then these people could be assigned to referee a neutral reserves game within their area. We have munno para,downs,grove,brahma,vale,inter,florina,parafield,west,east,vista,gully.Sorry if i missed any1 but this just an example. This would give the area just listed, 24 referees to choose from, on a roster system as some would not be able to make it all the time.And im sure these people wouldnt mind getting $70 to this as its not too far to travel ! then they still have time to get back to their own ground or wherever to watch their first team play !!!

Penalty11 · Post by **Penalty11** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:16 pm

nugget66 wrote:i totally agree Rexie, what i dont understand is why the reserve's of the 1st division are less important than C-team division 8 CRAZY???
I understand that there i a referee shortage, well fix it then & spend some of the $1,000,000.00 the SAASL have in the bank & poach federation ref's MONEY TALKS !!! I'm sick of hearing all the excuses!! there's a major problem in the amateur league & has been for a long time with referee's yet nothing is getting done to fix the problem. It can be fixed by paying more money!! state league referee's get $100.00 a game yet 1st division ref's $80.00 i know which one i'd be doing if it was my sunday. I'm shaw if you made it more attractive for referees you could fix the problem & it's not like we dont have the $$$$ to fix it.....

Point one: Have you asked your club if they want to pay a referee $100.00 a game???Point 2: What if the League raises the referee's fee's????Can you imaging the outcry by the majority of clubs???

Rexie · Post by **Rexie** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:16 pm

Reserves make a club! No questions asked. as I explained in my last post.

I usually play reserves, but occasionally play first team. Most of the players in our reserves could play first team at any other club. I spend a hell of a lot of money over our bar. I am one of the major sponsors of the club. But I can tell you this... The stronger the reserves team area, the stronger the first team are. This stems from them having to perform every week to keep thier spot in the team. Particularly with loads of young fellas coming through.

Our first team had 3 guns under the age of 18 on the bench, who manages really well against the Vista outfit. Fiar enough they may not be there every week, but with depth in a club, it can only make the playing side of things stronger, and hence bring in championships!

Rexie · Post by **Rexie** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:19 pm

And for those of you who think it is just for the scraps of the first team to have a kick around....
That is propably the only reason why your club will never be strong, on a playing side and a club side. Everything goes hand in hand.

Look at the big clubs, The Downs, Inter, Vale, Parafield. all have well worked clubs, with strong teams in all leauges they play. (or they use to)

The proof is in the pudding

nugget66 · Post by **nugget66** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:50 pm

rooboy you think im naive your 3 incidence's a fence & own shower would've stop i think not!!!
I'm not suggesting for one minute that a division 3rd or 4th division club should pay $150.00 for a referee or even that to be the figure! but i believe though that 1st division referee's should be paid more than a 3rd an 4th division ref's & not $5.00 more & the standard should be alot better as well. Look everyone in the amateur league knows that there is a problem with referee's & it's more noticeable in the 1st division because the majority of referee's capable of ref'n 1st division games are with all due respect to old & slow for the pace of the game. All im suggesting if you want to attract referee's over to the amateur league you have to pay more than $80.00 for 1st division games & i know for a fact our club would be prepared to pay more for a better standard of referee & I'd bet most 1st division clubs would feel the same...

vertu1 · Post by **vertu1** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:59 pm

why not also have reserve refs for divs 2 3 4 5 etc ?
the players in these divisions pay the same registration money to the league as those in higher divisions
why should they not have the same bang for their buck
the colour of their money is the same as players in div 1

why , because there are not enough referees thats why
would you run around for a couple of hours every sunday in the heat /cold /rain while being constantly abused and quite possibly under the threat of physical violence and then drive home afterwards wondering if anyones following you
all for 50 bucks or so
feck that

its the same in a lot of amatuer sport

also its has often been the case in the past that the lower div teams dont even have a ref for their A's! let alone their b's

it is an AMATUER league , it's all there in the name

a bit more respect for the opposition team would negate the need for an official ref in most cases

BEACHBUM · Post by **BEACHBUM** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:56 pm

rooboy1986 wrote:
nugget66 wrote:rooboy1986 seriously safety in all the time i've been associated with the amateur league i've only ever seen one referee assulted & one be threaten & a fence wouldnt have stopped that cause it was on the pitch. As for facilities i dont think that it would matter to the ref's if they had there own shower or not, but i'm convinced that if you paid them $150.00 a game we'd have them bust'in down the door!!!
I think you are lucky to have only witnessed one incident, i've witnessed 3 (one was a headbutt, the other was locking a ref in the change room and the last one was chasing a ref off the park... oh and one where the ref was spat on as he was walking off the ground...)

I think you are naive if you think that the refs having their own change room/shower doesn't matter... i'm sure it would make a difference!

And at $150 i still have to disagree, i don't think they would be busting the door down...

sorry mate just can't agree with anything you've written...

sounds like you used to go to salisbury villa games

nugget66 · Post by **nugget66** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:22 am

[quote="Shaken Not Stirred"]I think the ressies is exactly what it spells out, a 2nd team for most clubs. A team that gets the scraps after the A's coach his picked his best 16 for the week. Sometimes you get a good squad, other times you don't, it depends on injuries for the A's and the depth within the club. The Ressies have no factor what so ever on whether a club gets promoted or demoted. Therefore with the league struggling to supply officials as it is and we should be glad we get a ref for the A's.

Let just leave the Ressies as what is has always been, a kick around for most players who are not keen or not good enough to play Aâ€™s but more or less play to support there club. Good on emâ€¦[/quote

think you may have shaken it a bit to much 007!!! to say that 1st division reserves is just a kick around for the boys who cant make it you obviously have no idea what it takes to win a 1ST DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIP or of how competitive a competition DIV 1 reserves is. Understand that Division 1 is the highest standard in the amateur league & that division 1 reserves have a majority of players capable of playing to DIV.1 standard. DIV 8,9 & DIV 10 over 35's is more social a kick around

ozzie owl · Post by **ozzie owl** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:29 pm

Increasing fees is not going to prevent the decline in numbers in the SAASL.

Sadly poor behaviour by players, officials and spectators have taken their toll. Recruting has been hampered by the fact that young referees got the FFSA in lieu of the amamteur competition.

Reality is this,look at the average of the refs in the amateur competition, then think ten years from now.

To all you players who retire put something back and take up refereeing, otherwhise the long term future will be a bleak.

stinkfist · Post by **stinkfist** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:58 pm

one day you will get over it

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Div. 1 Res. "the forgotten"

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