Player Movement

[southern]

I've always thought it might be good to do away with reserves, and have an u/18 comp replace the u/17s, restrict it to teams in the 'elite' divisions and have them play in the current reserves timeslot. Players in the u/17 age bracket then either decide to take it seriously and move to an 'elite' club, or play for their club's social side. You could have provision for 3 overage players, and medical certificates for those playing back from injury.

I actually heard many ppl involved saying the same thing.
For what I know, some clubs actually put it to the FFSA as far back as two or three years ago (when the reserves were shafted altogether?)
The only problem...it's too simple for the FFSA to put in place!
it's always the same old problem. FFSA either don't consult or don't listed to what the women's football people say.
They always know better, and the people who actually care are left to deal with the result...

There are many problems in women's football (from the A.United coaching farce to grassroots development in clubs to coaches - male and female - having "relationships" with their players) and they can't be all solved over night. FFSA should listen to what ppl who are actually there (players, parents, coaches) say. It's called "consultation with stakeholders" if this may help, Mr. Carter.
Google it!

[Neyma]

some really interesting points here. From what I see that the best young players arent playing at their appropriate level. Clubs dropping players down to win Under 15 cup is a joke. Last night Under 14 girls played Metro Reserves, and was very very competitive game, which Metro snatch in the last minute to win 2-1. From what I understand in the Under 14's only 5 out of the 18 girls are playing Prem/res/State league football, and others playing 15/17. These girls are capable of playing at that level, however for some reason clubs put greater importance on winning an Under 15 trophy then they do for developing their best young players. Speaking to some of the parents they are also becoming frustrated at clubs holding their kids back so a coach can get his glory for Underage competition.

If a club put in place that a player has 3 years in reserves to look to establish themselves in a first team squad, if they are not going to really push then open up the path for a younger player.

A club is like a river, if their is no flow, then it becomes stagnant and stops the growth down stream.

Lets ensure the best young players are playing at their appropriate level week in week out, then players will be happy to stay, because the club looks to assist in their development, and they will develop a stronger culture at their club where players see a pathway.

[juniorsupporter]

Now hang on. Several of the U14's on that State squad who aren't playing open age football are doing that by choice or in some cases because that's what's available to them at their clubs. You can't automatically assume that clubs are deliberately playing them in the junior divisions so that they can win leagues. Some are playing them down in cup competitions either because there is no reserves comp or they figure they can't win Prem cup with a state league team (the most obvious example of this is Uni) but believe it or not, some clubs are interested in individual player development and don't feel that pushing youngsters up all the time is necessarily in the players' best interest.

[Neyma]

Acknowledge what you are saying juniorsupporter, that wasn't aimed at all clubs, was a generalisation and you are correct there are clubs doing the right thing. Was just going by what i have been told that some clubs aren't putting them up when the players have asked to at least train with the open age teams. Could be chinese whispers though

[Neyma]

Some good examples of younger players that have gone from strength to strength when playing up though. Ask the best players in the Premier league past and present and they will tell you they all were playing senior football at 13/14/15 and their learning was fast tracked. There are girls in the Matildas team aged 16yo, am sure that they havent been held back and have been allowed to compete at a level that challenges them week in week out. Lets have a look at the Jess Waterhouse and Lauren Steer that as the season has developed have gone from strength to strength, both under 14.

However next season it seems a few senior girls in the Premier league maybe moving aside, and we may start seeing a younger premier league that will be of great benefit for our future W-League teams here in SA.

How many of the current SASI squad are not playing premier league at the moment?

[Super_Trooper]

Adelaide City has always pushed for junior development and if you look at majority of our senior squads from Div 1 all the way to Prems there is at least 65-70% if not more is made up of existing junior players from within the club. We have 6 out of 9 teams being all juniors teams and we always look at new development and coaching methods to help our junior squads

Unfortunately this year we were unable to field a U17 team and believe me - it wasn't from the lack of trying! Majority of 2009 & 2010 U17s were too old and have filtered into the other 3 senior teams whilst some gave the game away to concentrate on year 11/12 studies. We spoke with FFSA and found that other clubs had similar problems

At the start of the season we had enough to field a bare-minimum U17 team (12-13'ish players) but this didnt take into account for potential holidays/injuries etc... We didnt want the girls to have a bad season through lack of players. Decision was eventually made to field 2x U15s with again the rest filtered into the appropriate senior teams. We hope that by looking at current numbers that we will be able to field not only an U17 team again but also the 3 senior teams and other junior teams.


I dont know if its just me but when I was playing reserves (and this isnt so long ago) I was there with the intention that I was there to work hard and try make it into the prems team. We were there to support the prems and you had to show that you were not 'as good' as the current prem players but better than them to gain a spot in the prems team - it took a couple years to develop and a lot of hard work before i was given that opportunity but i knew i worked hard for it......

It seems like players in reserves these days who are certainly good within their own right seem to just easily give up and move to clubs where they can play prems with an 'lesser' team. I dont know if it is the status of playing prems which is important to them or what but I am honestly sick and tired of players chopping and changing....

I want to find the players that have committment to their clubs through good and bad and not just feel the need to move around every time the wind blows...

Fair enough you might need to find a club before you are happy - look at Ebony W. who has played Cumberland, Adelaide City, Fulham, Metro... I know that she copped a bit for moving but she seems settled at happy at Metro and even gave up a whole season of playing thanks to w-league because she didnt want to leave her club - hats off to that for sure!

[paul merson]

I dont know if its just me but when I was playing reserves (and this isnt so long ago) I was there with the intention that I was there to work hard and try make it into the prems team. We were there to support the prems and you had to show that you were not 'as good' as the current prem players but better than them to gain a spot in the prems team - it took a couple years to develop and a lot of hard work before i was given that opportunity but i knew i worked hard for it......

Well put.

[juniorsupporter]

The other point that I would make is that skill isn't the only factor to consider in moving junior players into open age football- some are mentally ready for that challenge and some need an extra year to develop, even if they are skilled enough to hold their own on a prems/reserves side. Obviously players like Jess and Lauren are thriving where they are and are therefore in the right environment, but not all 14-year-olds would do so well (not to mention that we can't know what the long term effect of doing one thing or the other will be). There is something to be said, sometimes, for an extra year with more time on the ball (in junior football) to further develop skills and vision as well- Just because a junior player can play prems/reserves doesn't mean they always should. Point is there isn't one right answer here.

[Neyma]

very good point Junior, not all under 14/15 are ready to play prems/res. The players identified as the best in the state should be given that opportunity though. After all is only a small number out of all the players in that age.

[Super_Trooper]

I agree with you juniorsupporter that sometimes players just need an extra year to develop before moving into senior teams...

Luckly for clubs like Metro, Cumby, City and Toros (and now Adelaide Uni) where they have social division teams where junior players are able to be 'tested' before pushing them into prems/reserves... I know at City I have 4 players who have moved up from U15s into division 1 who are too good or just a bit too old for U15s but not yet strong enough for reserves so they have come into our Div 1 senior team to develop and toughen up before moving on... I know Metro have Ally a very young keeper who is a great keeper playing in Div 1 and without a doubt will press for a more permanent spot in res or prems one day! Toros also have many young players in their Div 1 team that would be great players in the future in state or higher leagues... I'm not sure how Cumby and Uni structures work but you'd hope they would like to do something similar...

I think the key here is to have depth within clubs and for these kids to realise that it's not about the name of the team you play for 'prems/reserves/state/social division' but its getting the best development in which ever team you are playing in so you can push to play at the highest level and not forgetting the hard work, blood, sweat and tears in between!!!!!

[Tony_Mowbray]

I have a concern, being on the wrong end of an FFSA ruling, regarding player movement which I cant seem to let go of.
It seems its ok for a single player, according to the statistics on the FFSA web site that a player can play State League, Div 2, Div 3 and Div 5 without playing in Div 4 over the course of the season so far. Can this be true? How can they skip a division when they also field a team in it?

Being the good investigator that I am. I have since found that the same club has not 1 but 4 players that have done this in the league competition and a further 1 player who played in the Div 3/4/5 cup round 2 as there first game of the year only to play in the State league round the following week. Does this conflict with the player movement ruling. Not according the FFSA.

Yet another player from the same club appears to be rotating between Div 3 and Div 5.

Oh yeah, its also seems like a waste of time doing card checks too because the FFSA will determine whether its worth following up with/without any logic or hard evidence at all.



It must be nice to have such a selection of players to choose from, its just a shame that some teams, particularly div 5 do not.

[Lucas Leiva]

I have a concern, being on the wrong end of an FFSA ruling, regarding player movement which I cant seem to let go of.
It seems its ok for a single player, according to the statistics on the FFSA web site that a player can play State League, Div 2, Div 3 and Div 5 without playing in Div 4 over the course of the season so far. Can this be true? How can they skip a division when they also field a team in it?

Being the good investigator that I am. I have since found that the same club has not 1 but 4 players that have done this in the league competition and a further 1 player who played in the Div 3/4/5 cup round 2 as there first game of the year only to play in the State league round the following week. Does this conflict with the player movement ruling. Not according the FFSA.

Yet another player from the same club appears to be rotating between Div 3 and Div 5.

Oh yeah, its also seems like a waste of time doing card checks too because the FFSA will determine whether its worth following up with/without any logic or hard evidence at all.



It must be nice to have such a selection of players to choose from, its just a shame that some teams, particularly div 5 do not.

Some clubs don’t decide which grade players will settle into until the halfway mark of the season. Also, some clubs will give good performers in lower divisions an opportunity to get a run in a higher division on the occasions that they can.

Then there’s players returning from injury, players returning from holidays, players new to the club having to start at the bottom quickly rising up, etc.

You can’t accuse a club of ‘stacking’ when the (one of two) club(s) you’re obviously referring to isn’t dominating Div 5!

[Tony_Mowbray]

I have a concern, being on the wrong end of an FFSA ruling, regarding player movement which I cant seem to let go of.
It seems its ok for a single player, according to the statistics on the FFSA web site that a player can play State League, Div 2, Div 3 and Div 5 without playing in Div 4 over the course of the season so far. Can this be true? How can they skip a division when they also field a team in it?

Being the good investigator that I am. I have since found that the same club has not 1 but 4 players that have done this in the league competition and a further 1 player who played in the Div 3/4/5 cup round 2 as there first game of the year only to play in the State league round the following week. Does this conflict with the player movement ruling. Not according the FFSA.

Yet another player from the same club appears to be rotating between Div 3 and Div 5.

Oh yeah, its also seems like a waste of time doing card checks too because the FFSA will determine whether its worth following up with/without any logic or hard evidence at all.



It must be nice to have such a selection of players to choose from, its just a shame that some teams, particularly div 5 do not.

Some clubs don’t decide which grade players will settle into until the halfway mark of the season. Also, some clubs will give good performers in lower divisions an opportunity to get a run in a higher division on the occasions that they can.

Then there’s players returning from injury, players returning from holidays, players new to the club having to start at the bottom quickly rising up, etc.

You can’t accuse a club of ‘stacking’ when the (one of two) club(s) you’re obviously referring to isn’t dominating Div 5!

Im sorry LL you may have mis-understood me. This does not just effect Div 5 clubs but others as well. As for players settling in halfway through the season. In this case the logic does not stack up. 3 of these player have played 9 games in state league each. then to play in div 5 WTF. if thats not settle in to state league I dont know what is

[The General]

Are you talking about the club that allegedly recently moved players from them State League team down to division 4 recently ( by passed all their other teams in the other divisions ) particularly as the 3 alleged State League player's name showed up on the team list that is published every week ?

So much for div 4+ 5 being social leagues

[Enrique]

My understanding is that we have two separate leagues, ELITE and SOCIAL.

ELITE: Premier / Reserves and State League

SOCIAL: DIVs 1 to 5

To make a level playing field for clubs that doesn’t have teams at the ELITE level. ELITE players should not be allowed to be dropped to the Social league and return to the ELITE League.

Allowing ELITE players to drop to the SOCIAL League it equates as allowing male Federation Players to play in the Amateurs and then back to the feds. You will never see this in the male competition because it will not be fare and you are only allowed to be part of one competition at the time.

Why are we any different?

Why clubs with teams in the ELITE competition continue to drop players to the SOCIAL Competition? Sure by now they have worked out the skill level of their players? They will come up with all sorts of excuses, but at the end of the day it is two separate competitions, ELITE and SOCIAL and they should be treated as such.

I would like to get some feedback on how clubs without teams in the ELITE competition feel about this rule that allows such player movement. This rule disadvantages clubs that only have SOCIAL teams week in and week out.

[Lucas Leiva]

Are you talking about the club that allegedly recently moved players from them State League team down to division 4 recently ( by passed all their other teams in the other divisions ) particularly as the 3 alleged State League player's name showed up on the team list that is published every week ?

So much for div 4+ 5 being social leagues

Which club was it, if you don't mind me asking?

Agree that State League shouldn't be dropping to Div 4/5. Can't imagine it happening at our club, there must be a reason the club who committed it went for it...?

[Enrique]

I'm not going to mention clubs names. I has happen to me on two separate occassion recently and I know it will happen again. I only noticed it when I started to check the opositions match cards after I got home. Last week the opposition had 4 State League players against us. The rule only allows 3 and I have highlited this to the federation and I'm waiting for a reply.

I will continue to monitor match cards and will contact the federation if it happens again.

My initial post is not related to Div 4/5. I just want to get a feel on how clubs feel about this Player movement rule that doesn't seem fair to some clubs. It provides a great deal of flexibility for teams with ELITE players which is great for them and not so great for others.

[Tony_Mowbray]

I'm not going to mention clubs names. I has happen to me on two separate occassion recently and I know it will happen again. I only noticed it when I started to check the opositions match cards after I got home. Last week the opposition had 4 State League players against us. The rule only allows 3 and I have highlited this to the federation and I'm waiting for a reply.I will continue to monitor match cards and will contact the federation if it happens again.

My initial post is not related to Div 4/5. I just want to get a feel on how clubs feel about this Player movement rule that doesn't seem fair to some clubs. It provides a great deal of flexibility for teams with ELITE players which is great for them and not so great for others.

Enrique. I can tell you that I am appauled at the FFSA's stand on this ruling as they do not have any consistancy in their judgements.
I have what is considered "Concrete" evidence that the rules on player movement have been broken by the team in question, only to be given a different interpretation of the rules by them.
For example the movement of players up/down a division is limited to 3 (yes?) anymore than this is a breach (yes).
So is the movement of these players taken from week to week? Say a player from round 9 (playing in state league) in round 10 plays in Div 2, is this a movement as detailed in the club competition rules or not (I think so), but the FFSA in this case did not. Does this also apply to cup games as well or is player movement in cup games separate from league games? (Not sure!) There is no excuse for players to skip a division from 1 week to the next (recovering from injury or otherwise) and not having this considered as a breach of this rule. Something the FFSA also informed us of.
Multiply this by 4 occurences in 1 game and you have more than just an oversight of a clubs player movement.

Then to be told by FFSA, believing we are correct in this interpretation of the rule, "if you want to appeal the decsion you need to pay $250". For what? they should admit they have got it wrong.

Dont hold your breathe waiting for a decision in your favour from FFSA you May be disappointed
As for the rule and how it effects clubs ... well if the rules are adhered to by honest clubs and there are clubs like mine that only field one team and therefore cannot take advantage of player movements (Legally) then .. bad luck to us. We are however looking at growing the number of teams next year which will ultimately grow the sport.

[themagnet]

So is the movement of these players taken from week to week? Say a player from round 9 (playing in state league) in round 10 plays in Div 2, is this a movement as detailed in the club competition rules or not (I think so), but the FFSA in this case did not. Does this also apply to cup games as well or is player movement in cup games separate from league games? (Not sure!) There is no excuse for players to skip a division from 1 week to the next (recovering from injury or otherwise)

In the case of the state league teams (a couple of them), if they don't have a team in div 1, then the next team for that club is div 2, so that's where they're gonna play.
In the other cases, I cant see why a player would be jumping around divisions so much, especially from State to div 5. Players should only really be moving 1 div up or 1 div down (if they've got the teams to cater for it). Good on you Tony for picking it up. Wonder if FFSA is regretting having all these stats available to us?

[Enrique]

Well another Sunday, another game.

In one of my earlier post on Player Movement I said that I was going to continue to check match cards to see how many players of the opposition have played in the ELITE league this season and are now playing in the SOCIAL league.

This week is Six.

I also noticed a couple of names in the club we played against that appeared in State League, div 2 and div. 3. Is this fair player movement? I know there probably are more but I'm going to check every name.

I know it will be time consuming, but I think the FFSA may need to consider having a long hard look at how some teams in the ELITE league stretch the rules of player movement.

Coaches if you are in the SOCIAL league and you have just played a team which has other teams in the ELITE league, check the opposition match cards to make sure that all the players are correct.

[The General]

I find it hard to comprehend why these clubs would do this against teams they are probably going to beat anyway ? While watching a game at Ade Unis ground yesterday afternoon,it was clearly obvious that you had a social team, up against a young fast skilful side who appear to have players that should be playing much higher,clearly a mismatch. Maybe the league and clubs should look at keeping junior players who ( move into the senior comp ),out of the Social comp ?
My question is why dont these clubs " bring in these players" against more competitve opponents,eg Para Hills Utd or Raiders,rather then against teams they are going to beat anyway ?
Apparently, according to the Ref the Ade Uni team was made up of a few players from an earlier game he officiated in,and players from another one of their teams ?

Talking to the young lady who was running the Social team, made the comment that if clubs have to stoop so low as to stack their team to win a game in div4 or 5, (alleged social comp )really sad, not too bothered about checking passes, they just look forward to catching up with each other everyweek ( a lot of them unable to train )for the social aspect,and they knew they were up against it from the start,as they originally were in div 5,but the league in their wisdom ? moved them up to div 4,always going to tough.

[Enrique]

Well another season is over.

We now need to start talking about a topic that a lot of clubs are having problems with.
There has been many clubs that are dis-advantaged by the current Rule 44 Player Movement that allows 3 senior players to drop to the next lower team within their club and it will also allow as many juniors that play in Premier reserves or state league to also drop to the social league.

This rule disadvantages most of the clubs (if not all) that only have teams in the social league. Clubs with teams in the premier (reserves) and state league always drop players to their social teams.
If a player choses to play Premier or State league they should stay within that league. If after 2 games at that level they find this is not for them, they should be allowed to move down to social league for the rest of the season.

If a player choses to play social and then gets selected to play premier or state league they should be allowed to play no more to 2 games at that level and then make a choice State or Social.
This will make players and coaches to seriously consider their options. Players should not be allowed to move up and down just to ensure results.
I do believe in Free movement of juniors within the Junior and social league (age permitting). But I do not believe in juniors to be used in the Premier and State League gaining very experience and then dropping them to the Social and junior leagues just to get better results or because the team has a bye.
What happens to hard working smaller senior and junior clubs that do not have this luxury and loose points by the clubs that drop Premier and State league players just for the sake of it?

Lets have a discussion on this topic. How many clubs have been affected by Rule 44?

[Fitz]

Well if the club I'm hoping to be coaching at in 2012 even thinks about dropping players on the basis that they would like to win a title in a lower division at the expense of players' development or playing at a level inferior to their capabilities, then I'll walk. From my meetings with one particular person at that club, it would seem that the turnaround in trainings, player discipline and club functioning will be a lot better than it was this year. They are currently putting in place a succession of plans, 1 year, 3 year, 5 year. I wont name the club, or the person I've been talking to, as I havent been confirmed yet, but hopefully things will be much better next season.

[Super_Trooper]

As a 'social' div 1 coach i would completely spit it if i was told to play reserve/prems players in my cup squad with the aim to win.

I know its been done elsewhere but it just erks me!!

[Enrique]

Who out there believes that the player movement rule should be changed to stop clubs with Prems/State teams from taking advantage of clubs that do not have Prems/state league teams?

This will encourage social teams because they will see that they can be more competitive by not having to play against players that can and usually play at a higher level.

This will encourage social teams in div 1, 2 and even 3 to bring up players from 4 and 5 divs to gain experience at a higher level.
Some clubs seem to always drop players into their lower divisions instead of bringing them up from their lower teams.

We have two separate leagues, ELITE and SOCIAL. Juniors should continue to have free movement between the Social and Junior teams.
Juniors that play Prem/State league should the make a decision on which league they would rather play not used as pawn by higher clubs between the ELITE and SOCIAL Leagues.

Thoughts anyone?