What the....????
Why no promotion and relegation? (although I agree that you would probably just end up with the same few teams Yo-Yo up and down each year)
If they were going to do this, then why on earth have prems clubs had to suffer the div2 debacle, with their reserves(div2) team sometimes playing at the opposite end of town to Prems?
I don't have a problem with PH staying in Prems, but I'll bet div1 teams wont be too happy?!
Makes a mockery of what they did to Toros last year too....
13/9 results
Moderators: BillShankly, John Cena, Forum Admins
Re: 13/9 results
AP is totally right here.
The best way should be a play-out involving bottom 2 from Prems and top 2 from D1 IMO. But even if so, if the FFSA at the start of the season says that there is going to be relegation then THeRE MUST BE!!!!!
How are clubs supposed to trust the FFSA if they consistently ignore/change the rules? FFSA for what I understand are doing just that, several times a season. They need to state what the rule is (e.g. there's relegation), write it down, make it public and then respect it! They make the whole sport look ridiculous.
The best way should be a play-out involving bottom 2 from Prems and top 2 from D1 IMO. But even if so, if the FFSA at the start of the season says that there is going to be relegation then THeRE MUST BE!!!!!
How are clubs supposed to trust the FFSA if they consistently ignore/change the rules? FFSA for what I understand are doing just that, several times a season. They need to state what the rule is (e.g. there's relegation), write it down, make it public and then respect it! They make the whole sport look ridiculous.
-
Easy Tiger
- Bench Warmer
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:42 am
Re: 13/9 results
yeah I agree too! It's good in a way that PH stay in the prems, they deserve it IMO, but it's so stupid how things get done...I can't believe it. If Gawler don't want to be promoted, then what about the second team in D1 who probably wanted it???pvfc wrote:What the....????
Why no promotion and relegation? (although I agree that you would probably just end up with the same few teams Yo-Yo up and down each year)
If they were going to do this, then why on earth have prems clubs had to suffer the div2 debacle, with their reserves(div2) team sometimes playing at the opposite end of town to Prems?
I don't have a problem with PH staying in Prems, but I'll bet div1 teams wont be too happy?!
Makes a mockery of what they did to Toros last year too....
-
adelaidepie
- Promising Junior
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: 13/9 results
Easy Tiger I think that is the problem the top team in div 1 don't want to get promoted which saves Para Hills. From information I have heard, and this is alleged so maybe wrong, the second and maybe even the third placed team don't want to go up and this is why I have brought this subject up. In the end if this is correct and I do stand to be corrected by those teams then this is a problem for FFSA.
How do you run a competition in which some teams don't want to go up giving teams that should go down a life line. Lucky for Para but frustrating for FFSA.
Adelaidepie Julian
How do you run a competition in which some teams don't want to go up giving teams that should go down a life line. Lucky for Para but frustrating for FFSA.
Adelaidepie Julian
Notts County Football Club the oldest and still the best. Black and White magic
NOTTS COUNTY CHAMPIONS DIVISION 2 2010
NOTTS COUNTY CHAMPIONS DIVISION 2 2010
Re: 13/9 results
While i agree in theory, I think one of the main points was that promotion and relegation was NOT assured at the start of the season, at Knights we asked the federation umpteen times throughout the year, the first few times at the start of the season and were informed every time that no decision had been made regarding relegation/promotion.
Furthermore I think we have to look a little bit more at the reality of the situation at the moment. With an 8 team competition promotion with guaranteed survival for 2 years isn't really a viable option. Nonwithstanding the problems present in bringing yourself up to prems standard in only 2 seasons, you are creating the ridiculous situation of season 2011 having 2 clubs who cannot be relegated in an 8 team competition. Logically if relegation had taken place at the end of this season PH were gone, and it stands to reason that C'town would be gone the next season. The 2 promoted sides then get a 'free pass' and you are likely looking at one of Sturt, Cumby or Fulham being relegated that season. So then we have then lost 3 current prems standard clubs to div 1, where they are likely to lose players and set their development backwards a number of years, and we go from having 6 prems standard clubs with 2 on the cusp, to having 5 prems standard clubs, and 3 with a minimum of 2 or 3 seasons to catch up to level we are at right now.
The playoff system is the only fair way to ensure that we have the clubs who both have the drive and the means to compete in the premier division. Some have argued on here that to bring it in this season would be unfair on the Div 1 clubs looking for promotion, unfortunately if we just went with the one up, one down system this season, you are looking at that promoted club (you couldn't give them the free pass for the reasons I mentioned before) enduring a season of heavy defeats only to face a playoff against another club who would find themselves in a similar situation, and we lose all the progress that Knights have made thus far, and the next few years should see the talented juniors at Knights and C'town begin to come into their own, and I think we'll find both clubs far stronger next season than any promoted club could be for quite some time. Our only other solution may be to increase the league to 10 sides, and bring up 2 div 1 sides who would be interested. Possibly.
I think FFSA have seen all these problems, and that may be why they are keeping things as they are for the time being, I would imagine/hope that we may see a play-off system introduced in the near future, and I guarantee the number of quality players floating about the state is only going to increase in the near future, which should hopefully increase standards across the board. However I think they are doing what they can to keep our top division as strong as it can be until these other clubs can catch up. Which unless they can begin to allocate SASI/W-league players to weaker clubs, or find some way of stopping the most talented girls congregating at the same 2-3 clubs is going to take many, many years.
As I mentioned before though, had the FFSA been promising promotion and relegation all season, I think the current situation would be extremely unfair, but as they haven't I think maybe we shouldn't be so quick to condemn them for trying to strengthen the premier division as far as possible (something we have all called for over many years), although hopefully more is planned, and that they are done far earlier and more publicly than they have this season!!
Furthermore I think we have to look a little bit more at the reality of the situation at the moment. With an 8 team competition promotion with guaranteed survival for 2 years isn't really a viable option. Nonwithstanding the problems present in bringing yourself up to prems standard in only 2 seasons, you are creating the ridiculous situation of season 2011 having 2 clubs who cannot be relegated in an 8 team competition. Logically if relegation had taken place at the end of this season PH were gone, and it stands to reason that C'town would be gone the next season. The 2 promoted sides then get a 'free pass' and you are likely looking at one of Sturt, Cumby or Fulham being relegated that season. So then we have then lost 3 current prems standard clubs to div 1, where they are likely to lose players and set their development backwards a number of years, and we go from having 6 prems standard clubs with 2 on the cusp, to having 5 prems standard clubs, and 3 with a minimum of 2 or 3 seasons to catch up to level we are at right now.
The playoff system is the only fair way to ensure that we have the clubs who both have the drive and the means to compete in the premier division. Some have argued on here that to bring it in this season would be unfair on the Div 1 clubs looking for promotion, unfortunately if we just went with the one up, one down system this season, you are looking at that promoted club (you couldn't give them the free pass for the reasons I mentioned before) enduring a season of heavy defeats only to face a playoff against another club who would find themselves in a similar situation, and we lose all the progress that Knights have made thus far, and the next few years should see the talented juniors at Knights and C'town begin to come into their own, and I think we'll find both clubs far stronger next season than any promoted club could be for quite some time. Our only other solution may be to increase the league to 10 sides, and bring up 2 div 1 sides who would be interested. Possibly.
I think FFSA have seen all these problems, and that may be why they are keeping things as they are for the time being, I would imagine/hope that we may see a play-off system introduced in the near future, and I guarantee the number of quality players floating about the state is only going to increase in the near future, which should hopefully increase standards across the board. However I think they are doing what they can to keep our top division as strong as it can be until these other clubs can catch up. Which unless they can begin to allocate SASI/W-league players to weaker clubs, or find some way of stopping the most talented girls congregating at the same 2-3 clubs is going to take many, many years.
As I mentioned before though, had the FFSA been promising promotion and relegation all season, I think the current situation would be extremely unfair, but as they haven't I think maybe we shouldn't be so quick to condemn them for trying to strengthen the premier division as far as possible (something we have all called for over many years), although hopefully more is planned, and that they are done far earlier and more publicly than they have this season!!
-
adelaidepie
- Promising Junior
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: 13/9 results
Alistair maybe you have more infomration than some people / teams but I have never heard that there would not be promotion / relegation at the end of the year and to be fair maybe I assumed which maybe wrong of me. However realistically this decision should be made and openly known before the season starts what is happening not half way through or afterwards as this is not the way to go.
As for the play off game v automatic this arguement is one that no one can win. It favours the prems teams and realistically gives little chance for teams pushing for promotion. It didn't work in England and can be seen as very unfair.
Too true about the standard / gap between div 1 and prems teams but this is why the div ones have to be exposed to the culture and games against the top sides. As you know at Para it takes time to nurture players through your system to get them up to standard and then you have to try and keep them. However again this is no different to EPL. Burnley have little chance of survival yet they do not get disadvantaged by not being allowed to be promoted. They just have to work twice as hard to survive. If they survive for a couple of seasons then hopefully their youngters are getting closer to playing and a new group of players will come to the club, but whichever way you go you can not take away the opportunity to promote and or to get relegated. To do this is to play god. It takes away the equal playing field.
If for example para were relegated hopefully they could hold most of their talented players and should be able to go straight back up.
The two year rule is one that gives a double edged sword. Meaning do they relegatee second to bottom team? I don't know but on this occasion this rule is not the difference between promotion and relegation for this season.
I would state again before a season starts the rules must be in place as to whether promotion and relegation are in place for all divisions othewise as like last year for Flinders it can be heart breaking and totally unfair.
As for the play off game v automatic this arguement is one that no one can win. It favours the prems teams and realistically gives little chance for teams pushing for promotion. It didn't work in England and can be seen as very unfair.
Too true about the standard / gap between div 1 and prems teams but this is why the div ones have to be exposed to the culture and games against the top sides. As you know at Para it takes time to nurture players through your system to get them up to standard and then you have to try and keep them. However again this is no different to EPL. Burnley have little chance of survival yet they do not get disadvantaged by not being allowed to be promoted. They just have to work twice as hard to survive. If they survive for a couple of seasons then hopefully their youngters are getting closer to playing and a new group of players will come to the club, but whichever way you go you can not take away the opportunity to promote and or to get relegated. To do this is to play god. It takes away the equal playing field.
If for example para were relegated hopefully they could hold most of their talented players and should be able to go straight back up.
The two year rule is one that gives a double edged sword. Meaning do they relegatee second to bottom team? I don't know but on this occasion this rule is not the difference between promotion and relegation for this season.
I would state again before a season starts the rules must be in place as to whether promotion and relegation are in place for all divisions othewise as like last year for Flinders it can be heart breaking and totally unfair.
Notts County Football Club the oldest and still the best. Black and White magic
NOTTS COUNTY CHAMPIONS DIVISION 2 2010
NOTTS COUNTY CHAMPIONS DIVISION 2 2010
Re: 13/9 results
I think that's the major point really. We've got to know what's going on at the beginning of the season, or at the very least by the middle! It's very, very hard for people to plan for things when you have no idea what's going on! Not finding out until after the season has finished isn't good for anyone.
Re: 13/9 results
Not trying to defend the FFSA here but the initial grounds rules for promotion/relegation were set out in the 2009 Competition rules at the beginning of the season, namely:
28. Number of teams to be Promoted and Relegated
FFSA will make the determination of the number of teams to be promoted and relegated for
any particular season.
28.1 Where no determination is made under this regulation, two teams shall be promoted
to, and two teams shall be relegated from, each division.
So in the absence of such a determination, both Para Hills and Ctown would be going down - in an eight team comp that would just be silly.
The upshot is, I think, the whole issue of the number of teams (eg 8 vs 10) and promotion/relegation to establish some more transparent rules/processes needs to be looked at. In the meantime, if no one wants to come up and no one wants to go down then we're better off leaving things as they are.
28. Number of teams to be Promoted and Relegated
FFSA will make the determination of the number of teams to be promoted and relegated for
any particular season.
28.1 Where no determination is made under this regulation, two teams shall be promoted
to, and two teams shall be relegated from, each division.
So in the absence of such a determination, both Para Hills and Ctown would be going down - in an eight team comp that would just be silly.
The upshot is, I think, the whole issue of the number of teams (eg 8 vs 10) and promotion/relegation to establish some more transparent rules/processes needs to be looked at. In the meantime, if no one wants to come up and no one wants to go down then we're better off leaving things as they are.