Restructuring of Woman's Leagues

[Neyma]

Been watching this forum and this is my first post. I am writing regarding restructuring of the womens leagues so eventually we can have a Premier League that has at least 10 teams. At present it seems that who ever wins Div 1(State League) dont want to go to the Premier League for the fear of getting hammered every week. Not sure this is good for the development of our game or for the development of players. Here is a proposal I have which i would like some feedback with (understanding that their will be negative feedback as part of that).

1. Maybe if the Reserve competition was scrapped, and moved into the State League meaning 7 teams (or if the clubs want to feel a Reserve team) Plus the top three from this years State league to give a ten team competition.

2. Now if a reserve team/B team wins the league, then they obviously dont get promoted. However if a new club can finish top of this league then they can be promoted to the Premier League.

3. If a new club can place higher then reserve teams and then you would suggest that they would be closer to be able to compete at Premier League level.

4. This also might path the way for reserve players wanting to play premier League to be recruited to strength the promoted club, and give them an opportunity to play premier league.

5. Their is no relegation from the Premier League until it becomes at least a 10 team competition.

6. When it becomes a 10 team competition and relegation is in order. With only the team that wins the league getting promoted.

7. If the team that gets relegated has a team in the Div 1, then their reserve team will move to Div 2.

8. If a Div 2 team gets promoted into Div 1 then any of the teams can be relegated, meaning the top team from Div 2 moves into Div 1. and bottom team Div 1 goes to Div 2 (If a premier team get relegated then their reserve team moves to Div 2)

Other thoughts are how we can also use the Div 1 as a development league as well. Maybe the Under 14/15 State Team could play in this league to have the girls playing at a high level, therefore preparing them to return to their clubs at a Premier League or at least a Div 1 level. They will only be away from their clubs for one season. and must return to their original club. That is open to debate though.

I believe that the restructuring of the league is a must in continuing to develop players and improve the quality of our leagues, and give clubs a realistic opportunity to grow their club, and to be competitive once they move to the top league.

Open to thoughts and ideas.

[richoman]

promoting teams and hoping they survive is not the answer
first we need to develop elite standard players to populate new teams so they can be competitive from the outset .
this needs to be done by all parties ie clubs, ffsa ,and sassi with a view to not only developing and retaining state players but also players to populate our elite squads
this is no easy fix but needs to be approached as a long term strategy
it is achievable and needs to be started by the clubs actively recruiting more junior players to begin the process

[themagnet]

Been watching this forum and this is my first post. I am writing regarding restructuring of the womens leagues so eventually we can have a Premier League that has at least 10 teams. At present it seems that who ever wins Div 1(State League) dont want to go to the Premier League for the fear of getting hammered every week. I think it's more about the clubs realising they don't have the depth to compete for a whole season at the elite level, eg. Gawler not having a second side or any juniors to back up the senior team Not sure this is good for the development of our game or for the development of players. Here is a proposal I have which i would like some feedback with (understanding that their will be negative feedback as part of that).

1. Maybe if the Reserve competition was scrapped, and moved into the State League meaning 7 teams (or if the clubs want to feel a Reserve team) Plus the top three from this years State league to give a ten team competition.
FFSA tried this two years ago and switched back straight away after a lot of clubs complained
2. Now if a reserve team/B team wins the league, then they obviously dont get promoted. However if a new club can finish top of this league then they can be promoted to the Premier League.

3. If a new club can place higher then reserve teams and then you would suggest that they would be closer to be able to compete at Premier League level.

4. This also might path the way for reserve players wanting to play premier League to be recruited to strength the promoted club, and give them an opportunity to play premier league.
nothing stopping them doing that now

5. Their is no relegation from the Premier League until it becomes at least a 10 team competition.

6. When it becomes a 10 team competition and relegation is in order. With only the team that wins the league getting promoted.

7. If the team that gets relegated has a team in the Div 1, then their reserve team will move to Div 2.
even if their reserve team wins Div 1?

8. If a Div 2 team gets promoted into Div 1 then any of the teams can be relegated, meaning the top team from Div 2 moves into Div 1. and bottom team Div 1 goes to Div 2 (If a premier team get relegated then their reserve team moves to Div 2)

Other thoughts are how we can also use the Div 1 as a development league as well. Maybe the Under 14/15 State Team could play in this league to have the girls playing at a high level, therefore preparing them to return to their clubs at a Premier League or at least a Div 1 level.actually not a bad idea, but I think one of the reasons this doesn't happen is that clubs don't want to play against their own girls, plus players making the state team are probably already playing or training with a higher grade They will only be away from their clubs for one season. and must return to their original club. That is open to debate though.

I believe that the restructuring of the league is a must in continuing to develop players and improve the quality of our leagues, and give clubs a realistic opportunity to grow their club, and to be competitive once they move to the top league.the restructure in 2009 did not go down well at all, hence why it was changed back after only one season. Also since then, two clubs that were playing prems have dropped down a division and neither have been able to maintain a second team, and another prems club is struggling to fill it's reserve side. For whatever reason, the elite level of womens football in this state is on a downward trend, and FFSA need to do something to stop the slide

Open to thoughts and ideas.

[Neyma]

Been thinking having gone to watch some Premier League and State League games this year, and waiting till the cup to see what some results are, was wondering what some think of expanding the league as of next year to a twelve team league.

Now some may not like the fact that there maybe some heavy defeats for some teams, however like in many leagues of the world (and even local mens league) that big defeats happen. He is a thought on expansion.

1. Combine the Premier League and the top 5 teams of the state League for a 12 Team League
I understanding that their will be heavy results at times, however every second week every team will have a competitive game against a team of similar standard. And throughout the season, a lower team will get points of a high team. This also gives the lower teams an opportunity to gauge their improvement throughout the season. A/B/C teams of one club can not play in the same league.
Maybe a league system as follows based on 12 team leagues

Premiera League(12 teams) 3pm KO
Adelaide Olympic
Adelaide City
Metro
Cumberland
Fulham
Sturt
South
Para Hills
Parafield Gardens
Toros
Adelaide Uni
Adelaide Hills

Premiera B League( 12 Teams) 1 pm KO
Flinders Flames
Campbelltown City
Olympic B
Cumberland B
Fulham B
Adelaide City B
Sturt B
South B
Metro B
Para Hills United
Raiders
Under Age State Team (Midweek Game)

Premiera C (12 Teams) 11pm KO

Western Toros B
Stirling
Seaford
Adelaide Hills B
Gawler
Munno Para
Adelaide Comets
Para Hills East
Salisbury Inter
Flinders Flames B
Adelaide Uni B
Para Hills United B


2. Disband goal difference, by using head to head score or a play off instead
To enable teams to develop, scrap goal difference and use head to head or play off for teams on equal points. Use successfully in Italy and Spain to determine the champions, and may assist in improving the lower clubs without worrying about goal difference to determine standings and the end of the season.

3. Maximum of 7 goal margin for any game
Game keeps playing, however maximum recorded score of a 7 goal margin. Goalscores are based on the first scores upto the maximum margin ie (7-0, 8-1, 9-2)

4. Final Series of Top 6
Could be used instead of the cup. Each league having a finals series, with final at Hindmarsh like the cup series. So throughout the season the dream of hindmarsh is still there. Gives the lower clubs something to play for, and help improve their measurement of their development. and keeps the season alive. In Australia it certain works, and keeps interest in the league through all the season. Also give clubs the opportunity to set goals for themselves for the season.

5. Promotion/Relegation

Only team with out a team in the above league can be promoted, and bottom team to be relagated. The leading team at end of home/away is the team that is promoted. If this is a B team then no promotion or relegation for that season.

Will this format give clubs the opportunity to build their clubs, and continue to strive to get stronger. Instead teams playing each other 3/4 times throughout the season and becoming boring for both players, fans, and clubs.

Then we can have a marketable league that can be promoted and a pathway for young players that want to play W-League. And improving the players by each week playing against good opposition, and also in developing coaches. Will young players stay in the league longer, instead of maybe walking away at 17/18 if they feel they are progressing.

[Leppskiii]

I'd not be overly happy playing 6 teams a round 2-3 times a season that would be games resulting in heavy defeats but then again it's the only way you can build the strength of the game and league I guess!

[Neyma]

Maybe State League team coaches would be the best ones to ask. If they could get to play against a Premier League team once a fortnight, would they improve in the long run. Might be some short term pain for long term gain. I think the teams would improve though if they are able to at least win some games against the others. Of course at first the current Prem teams will dominate, and as time goes by good young players will stay with their clubs knowing they are playing premier league. Prem teams would still have to concentrate for the other games, because anything can happen in football, plus a finals series. Over time this may at least gives teams a change to build for the future, when they know what the future actually is.

[paulscholesisthebest]

It's good to see someone making a serious effort to think outside the square. I like the idea of the 3 divisions for the elite level. A long term plan is definitely required and that idea has merit. The short term plans over the last few years have all failed. I agree that the Reserves competition is a significant part of the problem. There are a number of reasons for this, but here are a couple: First, there just aren't enough good players around, and the idea of having 10 or more Premier League teams, each with Reserves (if that is the idea that FFSA is considering), and a number of State League teams (don't know what the magic FFSA number is), each with Reserves (again, if that is the idea that FFSA is considering), is wishful thinking. Several of the current Premier league cIubs struggled last year to field a competitive Reserves team and from what I've heard and seen, the same is happening this year. Second, from what I have observed over the years, the Reserves competition is not developing young players to the extent that it should. Most (granted, not all) of the stronger Premier League clubs poach good players from other Premier League teams (see the post "imports" on this forum for at least one example, but you don't need to look any further than the Prem League and Cup winners over the last 2 years to see the point), rather than developing their own players. This has led to a hiatus of talent at this level and is evidence that the Reserves competition is not fulfilling what should be one of its main functions - to be a mechanism for the development of elite players. Having said that, I know that some Premier League coaches who see their Reserves players simply as fodder and not worth the effort of developing properly. This is a serious problem and is harming development of the game in SA.

I know that when the Reserves competition was suspended a couple of seasons ago, the Premier League clubs kicked up a fuss and it was reinstated, but it's not obvious that the Premier League clubs put the long term development of the game in SA above the success of their clubs. Where is the motivation for them to do that? One of the main points the Prem clubs used for reinstating the Reserves competition, and probably the only valid point, was that their fringe players needed solid game time on a regular basis and the Reserves competition was crucial for this to occur. The suggestion to have three elite tiers by Neyma would address this concern because those players could play in the "Premiera B" League.

A possible outcome of such an arrangement is that more players would be exposed to the quality games required to substantially improve their development, and their would be more encouragement for players to do so (more opportunities). The current arrangement (i.e. the Prem/Reserves competition) has already failed in this regard (and has been given plenty of opportunity). Maybe its time for a radical change that reflects that the Women's game is not the same as the Men's - we don't have the player base that the Men's game has, and therefore need to look at a different strategy to develop a high quality competition.

[Neyma]

Totally agree with that the Womans Competition isn't like the mens, and a different philosophy is needed. With the State league teams playing in a 12 team league, they will improve. Playing against stronger teams at first will highlight what the coach needs to improve and this will also help in developing our coaches as well. The improvement will happen, and over time these clubs can have a strategy for their long term development, and more quality young players will get the opportunity to play with better players. Sometimes young players in lesser teams dont shine due to the players around them. I think a few gems will certainly develop. With some very very good juniors coming through the state system, this will gives us the opportunity to also develop a strong group of players that can compete at W-League level and therefore improve the exposure and opportunities within womans football.

[Neyma]

State League coaches please feel free to comment

[abbie's keeper]

Some posts on this topic show a great deal of thought has gone into possible ways of developing the sport here in SA. Something that has not been forthcoming with the current administration.
Whenever complaints and critiscism has reared its voice on this forum about the current administrations failures, some minor unthinking comback in defence of this administration has been to shut up and put your hand up to do a better job. Well here it is, some great forward thinking that certainly has merit, and one would hope that Neyma, paulscholesisthebest or some other like minded persons have the drive and / or opportunity (subject to their current commitments) to put their hand up and take on the challenge that the current administration has failed to address.

[Neyma]

Maybe needs the clubs to unite and put a model together and present to the FFSA. If their is agreeance with the proposal across the board, then hopefully change will happen. Make a stance, and seems things get done at the FFSA.

As long as the proposal is read and not just left in someones intray.

If I was to get involved, I would want a common goal by the people on the cold face for the model. Happy to work with it, if all parties agree. So feedback from clubs would certainly help

[paul merson]

Maybe needs the clubs to unite and put a model together and present to the FFSA. If their is agreeance with the proposal across the board, then hopefully change will happen. Make a stance, and seems things get done at the FFSA.

As long as the proposal is read and not just left in someones intray.

If I was to get involved, I would want a common goal by the people on the cold face for the model. Happy to work with it, if all parties agree. So feedback from clubs would certainly help

This is pretty much exactly what happened with the mens league leading into this season, got ugly but got noticed.

From an outsiders perspective, the league needs more than 6 teams, coming from the mens league perspective Im not sure how you can operate with out the reserves, we rely upon them and its our duty to drag them up to our level, which sounds like that part lacks in the womens league from some of these posts.

Its kind of catch 22 situation though, you need more teams for the league to progress but are there enough players to justify it or are you just watering down the standard to improve on numbers, which is what the mens league has done by continually adding teams, has the standard improved? No, there is still only the same amount of quality players playing theyre just spread out.

Good to see some good ideas on this forum though

[southern]

It's good to see someone making a serious effort to think outside the square. I like the idea of the 3 divisions for the elite level. A long term plan is definitely required and that idea has merit. The short term plans over the last few years have all failed. I agree that the Reserves competition is a significant part of the problem. There are a number of reasons for this, but here are a couple: First, there just aren't enough good players around, and the idea of having 10 or more Premier League teams, each with Reserves (if that is the idea that FFSA is considering), and a number of State League teams (don't know what the magic FFSA number is), each with Reserves (again, if that is the idea that FFSA is considering), is wishful thinking. Several of the current Premier league cIubs struggled last year to field a competitive Reserves team and from what I've heard and seen, the same is happening this year. Second, from what I have observed over the years, the Reserves competition is not developing young players to the extent that it should. Most (granted, not all) of the stronger Premier League clubs poach good players from other Premier League teams (see the post "imports" on this forum for at least one example, but you don't need to look any further than the Prem League and Cup winners over the last 2 years to see the point), rather than developing their own players. This has led to a hiatus of talent at this level and is evidence that the Reserves competition is not fulfilling what should be one of its main functions - to be a mechanism for the development of elite players. Having said that, I know that some Premier League coaches who see their Reserves players simply as fodder and not worth the effort of developing properly. This is a serious problem and is harming development of the game in SA.

I know that when the Reserves competition was suspended a couple of seasons ago, the Premier League clubs kicked up a fuss and it was reinstated, but it's not obvious that the Premier League clubs put the long term development of the game in SA above the success of their clubs. Where is the motivation for them to do that? One of the main points the Prem clubs used for reinstating the Reserves competition, and probably the only valid point, was that their fringe players needed solid game time on a regular basis and the Reserves competition was crucial for this to occur. The suggestion to have three elite tiers by Neyma would address this concern because those players could play in the "Premiera B" League.

A possible outcome of such an arrangement is that more players would be exposed to the quality games required to substantially improve their development, and their would be more encouragement for players to do so (more opportunities). The current arrangement (i.e. the Prem/Reserves competition) has already failed in this regard (and has been given plenty of opportunity). Maybe its time for a radical change that reflects that the Women's game is not the same as the Men's - we don't have the player base that the Men's game has, and therefore need to look at a different strategy to develop a high quality competition.

Neyma has some good points, and even 'paul scholes' makes sense when says that there aren't enough good players to fulfil FFSA's plans.

Instead when making the point of poaching she/he shows not to know much at all about women's football in Adelaide!!!

1 Poaching/recruiting has going on forever and it's perfectly legal and accepted. Players have the rights to move from club to club if they feel that this would help their football.

2 More often than not it's the players themselves who approach clubs/coaches and not vice versa.

3 ALL the stronger Prem clubs (but also the weaker!) recruit players from other clubs - this year Cubmy and Olympic above everybody else, but also Metro and AC. Also other clubs do so - Fulham have a Prem squad with most players (or at least many) coming from outside and also Sturt do their fair share of recruiting each year. South Adelaide may have not been able to do so because players perceived them as not established and didn't want to go there, like in the past happened to Para Hills and C'town. In the past, for instance Para Hills tried their best to attract well known Prem players from other clubs (e.g. Metro and Fulham) but in the end the players said no.

4 ALL Prem clubs also develop their own players, including the strongest. All these club have a strong tradition in the reserves with young players including playing at state, SASI etc. Metro have most Prems coming from their own ranks or having been with the club for years (therefore known as homegrown by FFSA) and so have A.City. Cumberland used to be known for their commitment to their own players - now things have changed due to the attitude of the coach who "imported" all their star players at the expensed of their own - and still have many Prems players who grew in their juniors. Olympic are the only club with most of their Prems being "imported" (and I may even be wrong here).

It's great to see ppl having something to say apart from the usual cr@p/complaints/FFSA/WLeague etc. But really...check your facts before you come up with certain nonsense.

[Neyma]

I agree with Mers the importance of reserve teams in building a strong club. At this stage in woman's football think is something clubs will need to build slowly. The younger players coming through will build these teams up, and hopefully teams can build on their youth development with young players knowing that the club has a premier league team. Movement of players will always happen, now with a 12 team league will be movement between 12 teams if they all know that good opportunity to stay in the league long term. Even when metro first got promoted Mers in 2000 that had to scrap to avoid relegation them the club slowly built what it ia today. Let's give opportunity and let the league flourish

[Lucas Leiva]

The sooner a structure like this is established, the less of a situation will we get like right now with lopsided divisions that see teams slotted into the wrong divs on a regular basis. This discourages girls to keep playing not only in a season, but over the long-term.

I think a 12 team division should be the aim, but start at 10, and go from there. The bigger you make it, the harder it will be to maintain. Give some clubs time to establish their club and level of standard first.

Also, in the meantime, why there isn't a pre-season cup to determine which division new teams, etc, should go into is beyond me...the situation in Div 4 looks terrible.

[paulscholesisthebest]

Agree with Bad Egg that poaching has always gone on. I wasn't trying to argue that it should be stopped/prevented (impossible anyway), just that it was part of a complex problem and that needs to be taken into account. Of course players want to play in top teams and achieve success, and clubs want to win the Premier League, but as already pointed out, that is a short-term focus, and a long-term solution is needed.

I guess the main point is that in spite of all the tinkering around the edges of the competition, and all of the SASI/State programs etc, the elite competition is still in the same situation. At risk of repeating what's already been stated many times, State League teams can't compete when they are promoted and over the last few years have either actively asked for demotion, or refused promotion. A strong competition obviously can't be built under these circumstances. I note that Cumberland pumped South Adelaide 12-1 yesterday - not a very good omen.

With respect to the other points made by Bad Egg, I agree with them as far as they are written, but to accept that the past practice is fine because it's perfectly legal and accepted is to ignore that it's also part of the problem. Do you have any suggestions for change that will improve the situation? I still think that the three tiered League idea put forward by Neyma is one of the best ideas I’ve seen on this issue for a long time. Of course, the Devil is in the detail (i.e. not sure that 12 team leagues are achievable) and there will be many people coming up with reasons why it can’t/won’t work, but let’s try to be positive and discuss how it could work. Perhaps after appropriate discussion, something like this can be implemented for 5 years, rather than trying something for 1 year and then changing it back the next season.

Paul Merson's post stating the importance of the Reserves to the Men's League teams is true, but the structure proposed by Neyma wouldn't necessarily change that. Prem club Reserves would be playing in the same competition as some of the State league teams which, if managed properly, over a period of time, should improve the standard.

One other thing. I'm new to this particular blog site, but have been involved in several others. At risk of engaging in discussion outside the main topic (i.e. ideas to improve the league), I assume that we want this to be a constructive blog? If so, it would be good if we can refrain from making statements like "Instead when making the point of poaching she/he shows not to know much at all about women's football in Adelaide!!!”. Obviously, it's not possible to get everything out in one post on a blog - I did state that I was only making a couple of points on the issue - so perhaps asking for clarification of points rather than starting and finishing a discussion with statements of ridicule would be more helpful. My apologies if that was not the intent - it's easy to misinterpret the written word or jump to conclusions in these blogs.

[pvfc]

I agree that some sort of re-structure is probably needed, but the clubs (and I dont necessarily mean the so called 'strong' clubs) are going to have to have the stomach to accept there may well be some painful learning experiences to go through - can't just back out when they realise they are 'out of their depth' initially - need to be determined and be there for the long haul.
Similar suggestions for new structures have come from various people over the past few years - maybe someone will take notice eventually?

I have to say I have been avoiding the whole recruiting/poaching argument until now, but I think you'll find that in many cases it's the so called 'import' players approaching the clubs not the clubs approaching the players, so how can this be called recruiting/poaching?
I too used to think that clubs just came around 'poaching' some of the best players from our club - but the reality is that's not always true, players move clubs for many varied reasons.
Given recent experience I now realise that some clubs just get 'accused' of this poaching/recruiting when it's not what actually happens - I have seen this first hand recently so I don't have to listen to rumour and half truths.....and yes it's at a club where 80% or more of the Res/Prems squad are still 'home-grown'.

[paulscholesisthebest]

Fair to say the Reserves teams are mainly home grown, not necessarily the case for the Prem teams, and that's what I was talking about. Is it still 80% at that club this year if you only look at the Prem squad?

Anyway, perhaps this part of the discussion (poaching/recruitment) should be ignored. It's obviously an emotive point and it looks like it may generate more comment than the ideas for restructuring which would be a shame.

I agree that any serious restructuring will involve pain and if it is to occur, the clubs will need to be in it for the long haul.

[juniorsupporter]

One detail that I haven't heard anyone mention is that two of the current Prems teams only have one junior team at their clubs: Olympic has a 15's side and Metro has a 13's. How are clubs expecting to survive long term without junior programs? Granted these two particular teams are doing well in the Prems, and Metro in Reserves, but Olympic are struggling to field a competitive reserves side at the moment. They don't even have another senior side- Metro at least has a Div 1 side. I'm not sure that the discussion about restructuring the senior competition can proceed without addressing this alarming development of dwindling numbers of players at Premier clubs. .

[scipio africanus]

One detail that I haven't heard anyone mention is that two of the current Prems teams only have one junior team at their clubs: Olympic has a 15's side and Metro has a 13's. How are clubs expecting to survive long term without junior programs? Granted these two particular teams are doing well in the Prems, and Metro in Reserves, but Olympic are struggling to field a competitive reserves side at the moment. They don't even have another senior side- Metro at least has a Div 1 side. I'm not sure that the discussion about restructuring the senior competition can proceed without addressing this alarming development of dwindling numbers of players at Premier clubs. .

My niece plays for Metro U/13's.

I understand that as a result of shifting to their new home at Pooraka (which I think happened in Jan/Feb this year when most girls had already signed up for other clubs), the club lost most of the juniors who were sourced from around their old ground which was some distance away.

No doubt the committee were aware of the consequences of moving, but with a plan to rebuild their junior base in the North where there are no other Prem clubs in the zone from memory. As my niece will have to move up next year, I know the club is already moving towards at least two more additional youth teams next year, if not more.

Also, I think Metro has more registered seniors than any other club (or certainly one of the highest), so overall numbers are quite healthy and the Reserve and Div 1 side are currently top of their leagues.

Can't speak for Olympic, apart from they have a very strong Prem squad, but I did notice their one youth side already have a forfeit some weeks ago.

But your point remains pertinent ... even Adelaide City dont have u/17's this year for the first time in along time, so question needs to be understood why are some big Prem clubs losing players and teams at youth level??? Are player numbers down across the board in women's football?

[pvfc]

paulscholes - prems/res is 1 squad not 2, but even if you look at a 'typical' prems teamsheet then only something like 4 out of 16 players at the moment are technically not home-grown to the club in question. End of discussion on this.
However, moving on and getting back to the point at hand, juniorsupporter makes a very valid point - maybe need to address levels of junior involvement first? It's the only way the leagues can be sustainable.

[themagnet]

One detail that I haven't heard anyone mention is that two of the current Prems teams only have one junior team at their clubs: Olympic has a 15's side and Metro has a 13's. How are clubs expecting to survive long term without junior programs? Granted these two particular teams are doing well in the Prems, and Metro in Reserves, but Olympic are struggling to field a competitive reserves side at the moment. They don't even have another senior side- Metro at least has a Div 1 side. I'm not sure that the discussion about restructuring the senior competition can proceed without addressing this alarming development of dwindling numbers of players at Premier clubs. .

that's really surprising to hear about Metro. I thought they had one of the better junior setups at one stage, what's happened?

[paulscholesisthebest]

Yes, the point about the juniors is a crucial point. The problem needs to be tackled at both the senior and junior levels. There's no point in attempting to improve the senior elite competition with the pain it's likely to cause if there are not sufficient players coming through from the junior ranks to continue the momentum. By the same token, it's also unlikely that only improving the quality of development of the juniors will achieve the best outcome.

I seem to recall that FFSA has discussed the need for senior clubs at the elite level to have a minimum number of junior teams. Can anyone confirm this?

By the way, Scipio Africanus - great user name!

[no idea]

I think some of the ideas on here are good and would be great if all clubs got behind it and put something in writing and present to the FFSA. As it stands now the current structure says that as of 2013 any team that plays in the ELITE competition must have a Prem or State league side and a reserves side + 3 junior sides in at least 2 age groups also the SASI girls will play in the Prems in 2012. This is all good in theory but I dont think there are enough good players out there.

As for Metros move to the north and trying to build new junior sides good luck with this.
Let me give you some info about the north
1. more and more of the AFL amature and SANFL clubs are starting junior girls sides U/13 - U/16s
2. all but 2 clubs (Knights & Gawler) with women and girls sides are mixed up with mens amature clubs and also E&D clubs and manage to keep their fees down so low that they would not even cover costs.
3. it is a strong belief that girls should play with boys as long as they can even if only in a mixed side in the E&D competition.

So good luck to Metro in the north there is alot working against them but if anyone is going to make it work a big strong club like Metro will.

[juniorsupporter]

For the record, Metro only had one other junior team last year, so that makes 2 junior teams last year to one this year. Even if they still had two it wouldn't be a very robust number of junior teams. So the move north may have resulted in the loss of 1 junior team, but there still weren't many to begin with. I hope they are able to attract juniors in their new home- it can only be good for them and the competition.

And to address No Idea's reference to the rules regarding teams in the elite competitions and the number other teams they are required to have, I think that Flinders might be an exception because they have senior teams in divisions 2-5 and a state league team. That's a good support structure even though it doesn't include juniors. Yet.

But the bottom line is that elite clubs need strong junior programs. Players will still seek to move to clubs that they think will aid their development (among other reasons) and that's not a bad thing because clubs need new players to maintain a dynamic environment. In particular I think the State League is benefitting from some of that movement this year. That's good for the competition.

[M@rvin]

I think some of the ideas on here are good and would be great if all clubs got behind it and put something in writing and present to the FFSA. As it stands now the current structure says that as of 2013 any team that plays in the ELITE competition must have a Prem or State league side and a reserves side + 3 junior sides in at least 2 age groups also the SASI girls will play in the Prems in 2012. This is all good in theory but I dont think there are enough good players out there.

As for Metros move to the north and trying to build new junior sides good luck with this.
Let me give you some info about the north
1. more and more of the AFL amature and SANFL clubs are starting junior girls sides U/13 - U/16s
2. all but 2 clubs (Knights & Gawler) with women and girls sides are mixed up with mens amature clubs and also E&D clubs and manage to keep their fees down so low that they would not even cover costs.
3. it is a strong belief that girls should play with boys as long as they can even if only in a mixed side in the E&D competition.

So good luck to Metro in the north there is alot working against them but if anyone is going to make it work a big strong club like Metro will.

Its great to see the push for clubs to develop junior players, not sure there are enough junior players so that all the prem/state league clubs will be able to have 3 junior teams.
Maybe it would be easier to start with one junior team and increase the number yearly, also limit clubs to only one team per age group until the numbers build up.

[Neyma]

Some fantastic discussing happening so good to see. I think if clubs have and end product and senior players for younger players to look upto. Guess is a bit what comes first chicken or the egg. Maybe by having senior players mentoring juniors will certainly help build these communities around there clubs. Maybe the FFSA could put courses on to develop these players. With improvement of coaching the youth will improve. Maybe courses developed for the woman's games to assist the clubs. Good role models for these girls will help.

[juniorsupporter]

Unfortunately I don't see enough mentoring going on. There doesn't seem to be a culture of giving back in SA soccer. In SA softball there is a much stronger tradition of senior players coaching younger teams at clubs and setting an example of giving back to the clubs that have developed them. Not so much in soccer, regrettably. Furthermore, role models; girls who work hard in training and don't feel they walk on water or have to party all the time are few and far between. They're out there I'm sure but not in the majority. To be fair there are some who are stepping up- Lepps, Swaffer and Neits to name a few lately- Keep it coming girls! SA women's soccer needs your talents and input.

[juniorsupporter]

Sorry. Forgot to Include Sharon Black and Tracey Jenkins, both ex-Mathildas who continue to contribte heaps to women's football in sa, along with those who continue to be involved at the administrative level. No disrespect intended. We just need a stronger culture of giving back at the club Level.

[Neyma]

I agree. How many Premier players would be coaching at the moment? Can think of a handful, Blackie and Mel Plant at Sturt Marion, Lepps, Niets. That is about it. Four girls out of 7 teams isnt the best of numbers. I respect that coaching isnt for everyone, and can be difficult with girls studying and working, maybe if they work in partnership with another player, so they can share their time, or senior players working on specific areas could help. Maybe girls could do STIC teams, or work with other experienced coaches in mentoring them with their coaching.

Back to the structure I have put forward, the locations of the clubs I found interesting, their is a very good split across the city, which hopefully would encourage premier League players to play closer to home, and develop more awareness within their communities.

What about moving the league to summer? Where maybe more opportunties for girls to work inline with the W-League, clubs could maybe use Super League grounds for home games, which are fenced with club rooms and build a marketable league.

Could a seperate zone style Premier League be played in summer, where the best players from the areas being selected. That is very left of field I know, maybe could help keep clubs active all year round, and may attract more supporters to games.