FFSA v SAASL: Where to from here?

[blue moon]

needs an independent mediator i think. surely both sides could agree to that. split the costs.

[James]

needs an independent mediator i think. surely both sides could agree to that. split the costs.

Just down loaded the crawford report.

Part 3 - 43 states: Each state/member affiliate of SA adopt a management + operation structure that provides for effective coverage of soccer interests accross the entire state.

With this the SAASL can broker a deal to suit their best interests. So if not accepted by the affiliate of SA then the SAASL could call on SA to mediate.

The SAASL are in the box seat for negotiating this one. The question i have is, has the SAASL actually worked out what the best deal for them is?

If the answer is not to join FFSA/SA then the SAASF are free to run their own comp. Just dont whinge if your not allowed to play with the FFSA boys anymore.

[marooned]

Just downloaded it malcolm, more like just pulled it out your wallet.

Out of interest many of the FFSA lads are complaining they cant play with SAASL lads, but they have all been gagged. If the PMs i receive daily from FFSA clubs and players are anything to go by then the FFSA has some dire problems.

[Aldo Serena]

If the PMs i receive daily from FFSA clubs and players are anything to go by then the FFSA has some dire problems.

I second that!!

[The Kop]

SAASL should go straight to the FFA and lobby for SA football. Wouldnt be hard to come up with a couple of dozen examples of FFSA mismanagement and ineptitude.

After all the FFSA is just the United Clubs of SA (interim management group after the SASF was disbanded) with FFA backing, no?

Wouldnt if be funny of the tables were turned and the SAASL ran a semi-pro comp to go along with the existing the amateur comp as opposed to the FFSA trying to run a amateur comp alongside semi-pro.

[James]

Just downloaded it malcolm, more like just pulled it out your wallet.

Out of interest many of the FFSA lads are complaining they cant play with SAASL lads, but they have all been gagged. If the PMs i receive daily from FFSA clubs and players are anything to go by then the FFSA has some dire problems.

Maybe one of the conditions of the SAASF coming in could be the establishment of a better framework for consultation and decision making other than the iron fist approach the FFSA has.

I see lot of benefits of being under one umbrella. As long as affliliates dont get ripped off

[LUFC]

Wrong all bills including ambulance costs are covered

Wrong

Full income protection is not even covered by Workcover anymore.

Wrong.

[marooned]

Enlighten me LUFC.

[marooned]

Mal McDonald wrote

Maybe one of the conditions of the SAASF coming in could be the establishment of a better framework for consultation and decision making other than the iron fist approach the FFSA has.

I see lot of benefits of being under one umbrella. As long as affliliates dont get ripped off

Never a truer word spoken Mr McDonald, Im sure there are people within both parties that could nut out an amical agreement to suit all. At this time there is not.

[LUFC]

Enlighten me LUFC.

Well quite simply not all costs are covered. In fact anything in which medicare retains a component isn't claimable. That isn't different from insurer to insurer either, it's legislative.

And "full" income protection is readily available in the insurance market. There are of course limits and requirements like any insurance policy.

[marooned]

So what isnt covered if you go in an ambulance to hospital and get treated for a broken leg?

SAASL pay the ambo and medicare covers the rest.

As far as income protection goes you answered your own doubt. You can get income insurance at a premium and there are certain things you cant be covered for or waiting periods, the SAASL $200 a week payment is a back up for this service. Basically if you play soccer or bungy jump or go racing carts on weekends you should protect your income with insurance. The service of which you pay a minimal amount offerer by SAASL is pretty good.

[LUFC]

I agree with your second point.

To clarify the medicare issue, often there is a gap on the cost incurred and what medicare provides for. That "gap" is not legally not allowed to be insured.

Income protection, as you say, you get what you pay for.

[Cobweb]

You there Kitchimo?

Think outside the square bud!

Mal Mac and The Kop are gettin across my earlier thread.

It would be a huge task for SAASL to become the superior body, with the others having to fall in line with them.

Or as Marooned pointed out with both competing in the marketplace under the independant management of a state body.

Maybe Mr Carter would then take his balls and nets and maybe apply for a possie at Netball SA.

[Kitchimo]

You there Kitchimo?

Think outside the square bud!

Mal Mac and The Kop are gettin across my earlier thread.

It would be a huge task for SAASL to become the superior body, with the others having to fall in line with them.

Or as Marooned pointed out with both competing in the marketplace under the independant management of a state body.

Maybe Mr Carter would then take his balls and nets and maybe apply for a possie at Netball SA.

I very much doubt the FFA are going to turn their back on the FFSA, another public-relations disaster.

[crab16]

From what i can see, there are 2 real issues with merging FFSA and SAASL.

1- SAASL have cash. Easy. Work out how many "service years" the combined clubs have had and then distribute the funds back to those clubs on a pro rata basis. IE. Club A 35 years, Club B 3 years, Club C 2 years. Assume Club B changed their name to club C, combine their service together. Total of 40 years so you divide the cash $100 by 40 = $2.50 per year. Club A get $87.50 (35 x $2.50) and Club B get $12.50 (5 x $2.50) Simple example but could work on the larger scale. Any club that has folded your forfeit their service years. This would ensure the money went back to the clubs that generated it and then there is no money to get possesive about. Can start a new league and budget and build that up from scratch.

2 - Who is Div 1, who is div 2 etc? Super League, Premier league and State league would remain the same as the semi pro (if that's what they are) and retain the high entry costs and ground requirements. Sundays would most likely remain as they are because i'm not sure there is a Sunday FFSA comp. For Sat you decide on the optimal number of teams in each division. Lets say it's 10. 5 teams come from SAASL Div 1 and 5 teams come from Collegiate league div 1. The next 5 from each comp go into Div 2 and you just work down. You'll have some clubs (from both leagues) claim they are entitled to be Div 1. Well that's just bad luck. If you're that good get promoted for next year (maybe 3 up and 3 down in year 1 across all divisions). That would make the Sat comp stronger (in my oppinion) by giving it more depth. The premier of Div 1 has the option to go into State League for that year provided they can comply with all the entry requirements. (can anyone see the bottom placed State League club buying their spot?) Could be a tidy earner.

Would create a bit of a stir in the first year but would lead to 1 unified league structure that would allow any team good enough to play in the top division and also be under the same governing body.

For your consideration.

[swannsong]

From what i can see, there are 2 real issues with merging FFSA and SAASL.

1- SAASL have cash. Easy. Work out how many "service years" the combined clubs have had and then distribute the funds back to those clubs on a pro rata basis. IE. Club A 35 years, Club B 3 years, Club C 2 years. Assume Club B changed their name to club C, combine their service together. Total of 40 years so you divide the cash $100 by 40 = $2.50 per year. Club A get $87.50 (35 x $2.50) and Club B get $12.50 (5 x $2.50) Simple example but could work on the larger scale. Any club that has folded your forfeit their service years. This would ensure the money went back to the clubs that generated it and then there is no money to get possesive about. Can start a new league and budget and build that up from scratch.

2 - Who is Div 1, who is div 2 etc? Super League, Premier league and State league would remain the same as the semi pro (if that's what they are) and retain the high entry costs and ground requirements. Sundays would most likely remain as they are because i'm not sure there is a Sunday FFSA comp. For Sat you decide on the optimal number of teams in each division. Lets say it's 10. 5 teams come from SAASL Div 1 and 5 teams come from Collegiate league div 1. The next 5 from each comp go into Div 2 and you just work down. You'll have some clubs (from both leagues) claim they are entitled to be Div 1. Well that's just bad luck. If you're that good get promoted for next year (maybe 3 up and 3 down in year 1 across all divisions). That would make the Sat comp stronger (in my oppinion) by giving it more depth. The premier of Div 1 has the option to go into State League for that year provided they can comply with all the entry requirements. (can anyone see the bottom placed State League club buying their spot?) Could be a tidy earner.

Would create a bit of a stir in the first year but would lead to 1 unified league structure that would allow any team good enough to play in the top division and also be under the same governing body.

For your consideration.

And what affiliation fees would they pay ???

I believe the cash back for years of membership is being touted for the SAASL 50th. anniversary season !

[Jay Walking]

From what i can see, there are 2 real issues with merging FFSA and SAASL.

1- SAASL have cash. Easy. Work out how many "service years" the combined clubs have had and then distribute the funds back to those clubs on a pro rata basis. IE. Club A 35 years, Club B 3 years, Club C 2 years. Assume Club B changed their name to club C, combine their service together. Total of 40 years so you divide the cash $100 by 40 = $2.50 per year. Club A get $87.50 (35 x $2.50) and Club B get $12.50 (5 x $2.50) Simple example but could work on the larger scale. Any club that has folded your forfeit their service years. This would ensure the money went back to the clubs that generated it and then there is no money to get possesive about. Can start a new league and budget and build that up from scratch.

2 - Who is Div 1, who is div 2 etc? Super League, Premier league and State league would remain the same as the semi pro (if that's what they are) and retain the high entry costs and ground requirements. Sundays would most likely remain as they are because i'm not sure there is a Sunday FFSA comp. For Sat you decide on the optimal number of teams in each division. Lets say it's 10. 5 teams come from SAASL Div 1 and 5 teams come from Collegiate league div 1. The next 5 from each comp go into Div 2 and you just work down. You'll have some clubs (from both leagues) claim they are entitled to be Div 1. Well that's just bad luck. If you're that good get promoted for next year (maybe 3 up and 3 down in year 1 across all divisions). That would make the Sat comp stronger (in my oppinion) by giving it more depth. The premier of Div 1 has the option to go into State League for that year provided they can comply with all the entry requirements. (can anyone see the bottom placed State League club buying their spot?) Could be a tidy earner.

Would create a bit of a stir in the first year but would lead to 1 unified league structure that would allow any team good enough to play in the top division and also be under the same governing body.

For your consideration.

Point 1 - As Swanny said, the SAASL will in the 50th year be giving money to clubs based on the number of years they have been with the SAASL. The idea is that this money is to be used to improved clubs facilites, purchase new equipment etc. Given the SAASL has around $1.1 million in money in bank accounts or investments, they can easily afford to do so without risking the long term viability of the organisation.

Point 2 - The current FFSA comp would be seperate from the Amatuers. Also, I wouldn't want and I think the Collegiates are the same but there shouldn't be a merger between the two leagues. They have different aims and people play at the clubs for different reasons. They only thing I would do is include them in the cup competition.

Reality is that the situation isn't going to change anytime soon given that neither party is prepared to budge on key issues.

[crab16]

I don't know I'm unsure on the costs of each league. What are they now. I'd take a guess and say they should be less than the most expensive one now due to economies of scale.

[FoundIt]

the clubs should be getting some money back which is great... just remember the saasl is governing body for amateur clubs, not-for-profit essentially. it baffles me the saasl has loads of money sitting there, why hasnt it been spent on the member clubs? why has our registration fees just been sitting there in a rainy day fund for decades?

its a joke that the money has just piled up while we have put up with a lack of benefits back from the SAASL.

i think they do a great job, but dont hold all the money there, its meant to be for all of us to improve the comp. ie/ good refs, subsidized equipment, coaching training, etc.

its just the same with E&DJSA.

[Kitchimo]

Football in this state should come under the one umbrella. I've thought about this a fair bit. It's ridiculous that there are two competing associations, with two competing referee associations, that bicker and moan and not talk to each other essentially like two competitive siblings. It's also ridiculous that you have two/three separate amateur and over 35 competitions that are non-aligned.

Neither are going to budge, which is annoying. This is, IMO, a rough guide as to what should happen (from the top of my head during lunchtime):

For a start, the FFSA would have to make it "worthwhile" for the SAASL and its clubs to properly federate with the association. Whether that means maintaining the SAASL fee structure for an additional 3-5 years, and/or placing a moratorium on ethnic names, so be it. For those that don't feel it is "worthwhile", remember the SAASL has over 80 clubs and oversees the vast majority of adult male football in this state.

The clubs would be brought over in their current format (ie Sat Div 1, Sun Div 1), maintain the same competitions and medals, with the same NAMES (ie Rossi Medal, Cichanowski Shield). The SAASL money would be distributed solely to SAASL clubs on a sliding scale based on number of years participation.

Costs of administration are subsequently borne out by the FFSA through affiliation fees etc.

The FFSA would subsequently negotiate with the Collegiate League with the view to forming ONE amateur competition. In a perfect world, the Collegiate League would be merged into the SAASL competition over a two-three year system that allows all teams to find their perfect level. You woudl most likely have to have 12 or 14 team competitions and have multiple teams relegated from each comp until it works out, depending on whether the Collegiate teams played Saturday or Sunday.

The amateur side of the FFSA would therefore require its own full-time administration staff to handle updating websites, registrations etc - the usual stuff.

You maintain the semi-professional divisions (Super, Premier, State) and have the Sat 1, Sun 1 etc underneath. Like the Dutch leagues, there should be a playoff/playout system between the bottom two teams of the State League and the top two of each in Saturday/ Sunday Div 1 to determine which two teams plays in the State League the following season. The 'amateur' clubs can decline to enter this competition. A club like P Gardens, as lefty points out, has no aspirations to play in the higher structure and therefore would decline the invitation were they to finish in the relevant spots, whereas a club such as Adelaide Villa or Fulham or whoever may have those aspirations and were they to finish in the right spot may take up the offer to participate.

The 'amateur' clubs must also meet strict criteria in order to be 'promoted' (ie fencing, entry charges, U19 team).

Should a 'promoted' club eventuate from the Sunday Div 1, then, much like the other clubs who play in the semi-professional leagues, they should be allowed to determine the days that they play their home matches on (Sunday - ala Adelaide City who play on Monday night). Obviously, their away matches will be at the discretion of the clubs they play against. This can be one of the factors that any 'promoted' club from Sunday Div 1 takes into account before deciding to enter into any playoff/playout.

You would also make a rule that the 'amateur' branch of a club (ala Croydon and Polonia, Comets and Comets) could not play in a higher or same league as its parent club, ala the Spanish leagues and their 'B' teams.

The same deal would apply to the SAARSA - in terms of making it 'worthwhile'. You blanket accept all of their qualifications that you don't formerly recognise but you also make them undergo a fitness and skills test to determine their requisite level. Refs can then be graded to an appropriate level (ie Amateur A (Div 1 and 2), Amateur B (Div 3 and 4)). If you lose people because of this, such if life.

This is a very rough outline, obviously it can be improved, but at the end of the day, I believe it would be for the good of the game.

[Jay Walking]

the clubs should be getting some money back which is great... just remember the saasl is governing body for amateur clubs, not-for-profit essentially. it baffles me the saasl has loads of money sitting there, why hasnt it been spent on the member clubs? why has our registration fees just been sitting there in a rainy day fund for decades?

its a joke that the money has just piled up while we have put up with a lack of benefits back from the SAASL.

i think they do a great job, but dont hold all the money there, its meant to be for all of us to improve the comp. ie/ good refs, subsidized equipment, coaching training, etc.

its just the same with E&DJSA.

What do you think pays for the referees programs now? I would much rather the SAASL be in the position its in than give a lot of money away and then a rainy day does come along. They are also able to offer reasonable prize money, have the ability to set rego fees in stone for the next 5 years. The SAASL I think could look at having some kind of grants program but given that it opens up a can of worms of favourtism, how the money is spent etc, I would have concerns for this also.

Its like some people are just never happy. SAASL has money, they should spend it, the SAASL doesn't have money, why don't they, they can't budget.

[brutus01]

Again with this argument!

The SAASL has taken over 45 years to establish the assets it has through the large number of clubs and players.
If not for the the low cost, volunteers based admin, they would not have saved all this money?

The current Management have been volunteers, some for most of the last 30 years but they will one day move on.
Will there be a new crop to come through that will be prepared to volunteer their time as they have?
The current management spend more time on League business than the 3 days a week that the office is open. Who will do that volunteer work while holding a have a full time job?

If the SAASL had to appoint a full time General Manager, what salary would they need to be paid, plus add any other full time staff?

Yes the SAASL has the cash in the bank, but take out full time running costs and see where the League will be in 5 years, 10 years and so on? We all would still like our club's playing costs to remain low....so who will pay for the running costs in the future.

The SAASL has done well to build up this nest egg to guarantee the long term future of the League....bring on another 50 years.
The SAASL will be there, but will the current FFSA?

There is no need to join, look at what the SAASL have now, and what they will have in the future!

[Kitchimo]

Again with this argument!

The SAASL has taken over 45 years to establish the assets it has through the large number of clubs and players.
If not for the the low cost, volunteers based admin, they would not have saved all this money? Debatable.
The current Management have been volunteers, some for most of the last 30 years but they will one day move on.
Will there be a new crop to come through that will be prepared to volunteer their time as they have? Unlikely.
The current management spend more time on League business than the 3 days a week that the office is open. Who will do that volunteer work while holding a have a full time job? No-one.

If the SAASL had to appoint a full time General Manager, what salary would they need to be paid, plus add any other full time staff? Set out a duty statement and we can determine that

Yes the SAASL has the cash in the bank, but take out full time running costs and see where the League will be in 5 years, 10 years and so on? We all would still like our club's playing costs to remain low....so who will pay for the running costs in the future. What exactly are the 'full time running costs'? A General Manager type person could attempt to source their income through sponsorship.

The SAASL has done well to build up this nest egg to guarantee the long term future of the League....bring on another 50 years.
The SAASL will be there, but will the current FFSA? They aren't going anywhere

There is no need to join, look at what the SAASL have now, and what they will have in the future! Enlighten us as to what they will have in the future.

[Crue Head]

he SAASL system is not "insurance", it's merely dipping into the funds that they have and providing $200 as income protection to those that "can't work". It's not going to pay for your hospital bills, ambulance fees, or provide full income protection et al.

Wrong all bills including ambulance costs are covered. Full income protection is not even covered by Workcover anymore, players,workers and any one that ventures outdoors should cover themselves for this rare occurance.

Well the 5 people that I had in the program last year were denied access to those costs by Bob Cox, Accident Fund Manager.

I still don't see any benefit for the SAASL in joining the FFSA under its current administration.

My ambulance bill was paid last season.

[Lucas Leiva]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I hear nightmare stories of the debts that some FFSA clubs are racking up; I wouldn't want to see that happen 5 fold. Until the FFSA get their own ship in order - which includes a similar clear-out prior to the end of the SASF - then the SAASL (which could still learn a thing or two in the admin area itself) should wait.

This is the FFA's responsibility, not SAASL.

[Steve#4]

Word..

[swannsong]

Word..

Maybe the last word, but you did follow it up with a couple of good points !

[e-football]

[FoundIt]

its just the same with E&DJSA.

What do you think pays for the referees programs now? I would much rather the SAASL be in the position its in than give a lot of money away and then a rainy day does come along. They are also able to offer reasonable prize money, have the ability to set rego fees in stone for the next 5 years. The SAASL I think could look at having some kind of grants program but given that it opens up a can of worms of favourtism, how the money is spent etc, I would have concerns for this also.

Its like some people are just never happy. SAASL has money, they should spend it, the SAASL doesn't have money, why don't they, they can't budget.

i never said they do not pay for the refs programmes. they should be. thats what we put in for.

what rainy days r u on about? who or what or where or when would this be needed for?

they are able to offer reasonable prizemoney now ur right and set the rego fees in stone for 5 years. thats great. what about the previous years when people paid money in to get benefits then? u shouldnt have to wait for several years to realise the benefits. ok a 2-3 year plan is great if you know ur putting ur $$ in for a particular reason.... its not great when u pay ur fees and hope in 20 years time u get some real tangible benefit out of the total of what you contributed. they r doing the prize money and the rego freeze because they have been holding on to clubs money for too long. thats why. great they r doing it.

there is a grant programme of sorts. thats how the african clubs got in to the league. its a great idea.

again, i re-iterate, i think the saasl does a good job and is a good comp. im querying why there is so much money in a not-for-profit amateur association's bank a/c.

[KING NUGGETT]

Why have the SAASL got so much money in the bank you ask? Why?
because they can! $60,000 a year on interest to spend without touching capital pretty smart Im thinking...