Scenario for 2012

[batumgoesthedynamite]

12 team comp

6 teams from prems
Sturt
Cumby
Fulham
Ad City
Metro
Olympic

6 teams from div 1
Gawler
Para Hills
Flinders Uni
Western District Toros
Sth Adelaide
Ad Uni

first 11 rounds, each team plays against each other once
after that, the league gets split into two groups - top 6 and bottom 6

two groups of 6 play against each other two more times making it a 21 rounds

Cup round
4 groups of 3
play each other once
winner of each group play in the semi

Each team has a reserve team, but there is no reserve cup
Theory behind this, is that hopefully will make a few players move to a new prems club who can offer the cup competition as well as playing prems weekly.

No relegation for three years.
This allows the next tier of clubs to build up and make a competitive Div 1
PHE, Comets, Parafield, Stirling, Ad Hills, Downs

thoughts? opinions?

[themagnet]

What makes everyone think that people will move clubs just to play prems?
This year has been a perfect example that they won't. Two clubs dropped down from that competition this year because they couldn't field a competitive side (and their reserves weren't much better). Both clubs expressed their need to get new players into their Prems side and had their trials, but where were all these players that want to play Prems so bad
Heck, we even had the situation where an AU player has skipped the whole season because she wanted to play at one club, wasn't allowed to, and wouldn't move to another!
If players had moved the whole CCSC situation may have been avoided, PH Knights might still be in Prems and there would still be a competitive 8 team comp, but they didn't, and there aren't enough that will just to play in a higher league.

On another note, what would you call the bottom six sides once they have played the first 11 rounds? Do they get their own league name? Prems B? What if a team is comming 6th, can't beat the top 5 teams, but is confident against the bottom 6 and start throwing games so that they can drop down the table so they can claim the 'title' later in the year?
And, how can the league prepare a season fixture if they don't know who is playing who? It's not an easy thing to organise, and can sometimes take time, we''ve all seen that there is usually a draft fixture list before the proper one comes out, I don't think it'd be practical to try organise new fixtures mid season.

[BillShankly]

firstly i assume you mean 2011!

Secondly i think its a good idea, well though out. The scottish premier league has a similar format.

The idea would boost numbers and create a new interest in womens soccer with the elite comp.

[shorty]

so let me get this straight.....

just say fulham & metro lose to south adelaide in the first round. Then, when the bottom 6 play each other South Adelaide beat the other 5 teams. Fulham & metro lose games both to city & olympic - does that mean fulham & metro would finish below south adelaide who have no credibility within the premier league?
Sorry, personally i dont tihnk a set-up like that would work in South Australia. NSW - yes but when you have girls like ebony who if not allowed to play for their chosen club would rather sit out a year and not play then u cant expect the other clubs like para hills, gawler etc to gain high profile players. (in saying that - im not having a dig at ebs, just saying girls struggle to leave clubs these days coz they like the friends scenerey)
but goodluck if it pulls off well done!
thats just my opinion - now i wont write on here for months ha

[beaches]

If as stated South Adelaide for instance win more of their 11 games than another 'recognised' Premier League team then they would be in top 6 Prems for the rest of the season bad luck 'recognised' Prem team who would have to play against the lower 6 for the rest of the season. Have to wait till the next season to get back in the top 6. No clearances/transfers once the season competition commences!! Wonder what loopholes will surface then??

[courtz]

too complicated. nto enough players to support that many premier league quality teams...
ideas great but SA doesnt have the broad spread of players n there will be 12-0 floggings; very demoralising.

[pvfc]

My personal opinion - waste of time......
May as well stay with a 6 team Premier League!
Are there really enough truly prems standard players around to make up 24 teams ?! (if a player is in reserves they must surely be capable of playing competitively in Prems?)
That means 384 prems standard players - no offence, but the reality is that situation just doesn't exist in SA at the moment...
Be realistic or it will all end in tears.

[Easy Tiger]

I don't know if this stuff is good...how will this make the league better? If there aren't players of a certain level I mean.

No disrespect intended, but players will prefer to be in the ressies with a good club and have the chance to play in their prems (if others get injuried or don't perform...) than move to a weaker club unless they can offer better coaching and general quality. OK, maybe some players prefer to go to weak clubs but not enough to make the league even slightly interesting.

I think it's better that only 2 clubs (the best) move up, but they need to start contacting players and offering good coaches or nobody will move. If not, they may as well stay with 6 teams, but the reserves should be considered the next tier, because players that want a future (so the good ones) will never want to play in D1. Good clubs attract good players and the others have to become attractive instead of whingeing that their players leave or that top players don't want to go there. Look at Olympic, they were weak a few years ago and now they are 'best on papers' (OK I know, only on paper but still...), that happened by appointing good coaches and building a solid group of good players.

[beaches]

Gawler and Panthers have saluted as the top 2 in Div 1.

This gives opportunity for girls living in the growing areas whom aspire to play at the highest level to have a Premier League club in their area.

If the same rules apply re SASI/W-League number restrictions still apply this should benefit these 2 clubs. Also the competition overall.

Makes sense to have Premier League clubs in the growing areas.

[batumgoesthedynamite]

Top 2 promoted will have a lot of work infront of them, thats if they do end up going up.

[beaches]

Yes but they have a huge area to work on. Also for both clubs very important to get some experienced players back who live in the south and north!!! I guess it is a watch this space scenario.
I believe they can be competitive initially and then improve dramatically.

[no idea]

After seeing both prem & Div 1 games this season I believe whoever goes up from Div1 will have to make their squads alot stronger and add more experienced top grade players to even compete with the bottom prem sides. Panthers look like they will go up but I dont think at the moment that Gawler are ready as they dont have a second side. We all know the rules no reserves no prems. But good luck to whoever goes up.

[batumgoesthedynamite]

beaches your obvious biase for the south is quite boring

will your daughter be playing there next yr?

[beaches]

Biassed? No. Common sense says that the deep South needs a higher level club for a young players pathway.

You have mentioned a daughter but there are at least 10 players I know of at other Premier League clubs who probably still have residential connections to the South. Should Panthers go into Premier League it is up to the club as to how competitive or ultra competitive they choose to be.

As far as the North goes, with all the clubs up there surely they can get their act together and ensure that they have a Premier Club in the area.

[all rounder]

Do you think it is possible to make a Premier League with each team having an optional reserves team?

If, as has been suggested, the Premier League becomes a 12 team league, with the 6 current PL teams plus the top 6 from Div 1, then maybe having a reserves side could be optional for those clubs who want to (or have the player numbers to do so) build their senior squads. Some of the Div 1 sides who could be promoted won't have a reserves team, but they won't be disadvantaged by not having one.

I realise that creating a fixture for a reserves league where only clubs have reserves teams would be a nightmare, but the reserves league should be for players who are aiming to break into the PL, so it should be considered short term pain for long term gain. In addition, making the reserves league less appealing might help solve the problem of fringe players not moving clubs. Players that are never going to get a look in for their PL team might not put up with a reserves league if it was more of a transition league.

Just a thought, comments and criticisms are welcome.

[The General]

The Dilemma women's soccer here has at the moment,is that there are players in the reserve league who could be playing Premier League if they were with another club ( eg one of the top div 1 sides ) that didnt yet have a Premier side-how do you entice those players to do that ?
I have been involved in a lot of sports,but women's soccer is the only one I know where the Reserves grade is the 2nd strongest grade in the competiition. From what I saw season 2010,you would not have a problem getting 8 Premier teams if the 20 best Reserves Players went to the top four division one sides ( 5 per club ) you would have a very interesting competition ( including the P teams that are already there )
It will mean some changes and some heartbreak decisions - game will benefit and grow is the short and long term gain....in my opinion.

[pvfc]

Hopefully this will all be sorted out soon so that the clubs can start to plan for next year...
Dont really want to wait until December or January to know what is going to happen.

[beaches]

Here we go again. As I have remarked on this forum numerous times I have never been in favor of U/17's but now we have them, they should be ranked the second highest after Premier League and no Reserves Grade.

It has become obvious that the elite levels eg Matildas, Young Matildas etc are going for very young players in the squads they have these in the system to back up players who will retire over the next 2,3,4 years or so.

The Premier League Clubs can join this idea and have their compulsory U/17 teams play before them on match days.

This would/could see Reserves players go to Division1 teams.

[The General]

Here we go again. As I have remarked on this forum numerous times I have never been in favor of U/17's but now we have them, they should be ranked the second highest after Premier League and no Reserves Grade.

It has become obvious that the elite levels eg Matildas, Young Matildas etc are going for very young players in the squads they have these in the system to back up players who will retire over the next 2,3,4 years or so.

The Premier League Clubs can join this idea and have their compulsory U/17 teams play before them on match days.

This would/could see Reserves players go to Division1 teams.

Some good points there. In the past,we've had the problem,where former Reserve Players good enough to play Premier league, have stayed with the club even when there was no Reserve league. Consequently these Premier clubs will have strong teams winning the lower divisions,thereby stopping other clubs getting into the higher division. How do you encourage these good players to join other clubs and help them get into the highest division,and then having more clubs in the top division ? Not only will it benefit the competition,will also help with the development of these players, ( will be playing Premier instead of Reserves or div 2 )and those around them.

[southern]

Here we go again. As I have remarked on this forum numerous times I have never been in favor of U/17's but now we have them, they should be ranked the second highest after Premier League and no Reserves Grade.

It has become obvious that the elite levels eg Matildas, Young Matildas etc are going for very young players in the squads they have these in the system to back up players who will retire over the next 2,3,4 years or so.

The Premier League Clubs can join this idea and have their compulsory U/17 teams play before them on match days.

This would/could see Reserves players go to Division1 teams.

I think you are right beaches. U17s should be the second tier compulsory for all Prem clubs.
No reserves, these players (if over 17) should go to new clubs and play Prems. If players aren't ready for the Prems when they are 18, then when will they be?
No Prem club should have another senior squad (e.g. Div 2, 3 etc), those players should go to other clubs.
Like this, the fringe players have to move if they want to play.
It's hard but it's the only way up.
Quite simply, there are not enough good players for 8 quality teams plus reserves sides.

[Caretaker Coach]

Here we go again. As I have remarked on this forum numerous times I have never been in favor of U/17's but now we have them, they should be ranked the second highest after Premier League and no Reserves Grade.

It has become obvious that the elite levels eg Matildas, Young Matildas etc are going for very young players in the squads they have these in the system to back up players who will retire over the next 2,3,4 years or so.

The Premier League Clubs can join this idea and have their compulsory U/17 teams play before them on match days.

This would/could see Reserves players go to Division1 teams.

I think you are right beaches. U17s should be the second tier compulsory for all Prem clubs.
No reserves, these players (if over 17) should go to new clubs and play Prems. If players aren't ready for the Prems when they are 18, then when will they be?
No Prem club should have another senior squad (e.g. Div 2, 3 etc), those players should go to other clubs.
Like this, the fringe players have to move if they want to play.
It's hard but it's the only way up.
Quite simply, there are not enough good players for 8 quality teams plus reserves sides.

I think that is very similar to what the General said. However i still think Premier clubs can have a second senior team,they would to be in the bottom division. This would still allow upcoming junior players to make a transition from junior to senior without jumping straight into the Premier league,not all of them are ready for that.This would also encourage former Reserves players to go to other clubs,make those clubs strong enough to have a Premier team.
Are there any genuine Reserve players on this forum who would like to comment ?

Whether you agree or disagree,share your thoughts now,maybe by the time next season comes,might have something better in place.

[pvfc]

]

I think that is very similar to what the General said. However i still think Premier clubs can have a second senior team,they would to be in the bottom division. This would still allow upcoming junior players to make a transition from junior to senior without jumping straight into the Premier league,not all of them are ready for that.This would also encourage former Reserves players to go to other clubs,make those clubs strong enough to have a Premier team.
Are there any genuine Reserve players on this forum who would like to comment ?

Whether you agree or disagree,share your thoughts now,maybe by the time next season comes,might have something better in place.

I'm not a player, but I absolutely disagree - Reserves (or a second 'high div' team in a club) is needed if Prems is to be a proper 'elite' competition in SA. This provides competition for places in the Prems team each week and also some depth, a squad of 16 is nowhere near enough. No reserves level team within a club would force larger Prems squads, potentially leaving players with no game on a Sunday and no alternative team in a reasonable level league for them to play for on those occasions. It also wouldn't be fair on an U17 team who are there to develop both as individuals and as a team in an appropriate competition if they end up being constantly depleted to cover injury etc for a small (16 player) Prems squad.
Quite apart from that, if girls have played for their club for years and really want to stay there, and the club's coaches have worked hard to help the players develop then why should they be forced to move elsewhere just because someone has said their club can only have one 'high div' senior team?
To suggest that Prems clubs 'second' senior teams should be in lowest div is absolutely ludicrous! How could that possibly be a stepping-stone into Prems?! The standard of the bottom div is 'light years' away from Prems (and that's just reality, no insult intended to div 5 teams).

[juniorsupporter]

I agree completely with pvfc. Furthermore, aside from the differences in quality between Div 5 and the reserves,. which are huge indeed, I'm quite sure that the Div 5 players wouldn't be interested in having elite U15 and U17 players in their comps, nor would it do those young players, aspiring to the highest levels, any good developmentally to play in Div 5, no disrespect intended to players in div 5. Simply, Div 5 is a more social division and the Prems/Reserves are meant to groom the playing elite in SA. The Premier League teams absolutely need a pool of players to support them that is playing week to week at a high level and ready to compete for spots. The reserve division is needed.

[The General]

Here we go again. As I have remarked on this forum numerous times I have never been in favor of U/17's but now we have them, they should be ranked the second highest after Premier League and no Reserves Grade.

It has become obvious that the elite levels eg Matildas, Young Matildas etc are going for very young players in the squads they have these in the system to back up players who will retire over the next 2,3,4 years or so.

The Premier League Clubs can join this idea and have their compulsory U/17 teams play before them on match days.

This would/could see Reserves players go to Division1 teams.

I think you are right beaches. U17s should be the second tier compulsory for all Prem clubs.
No reserves, these players (if over 17) should go to new clubs and play Prems. If players aren't ready for the Prems when they are 18, then when will they be?
No Prem club should have another senior squad (e.g. Div 2, 3 etc), those players should go to other clubs.
Like this, the fringe players have to move if they want to play.
It's hard but it's the only way up.
Quite simply, there are not enough good players for 8 quality teams plus reserves sides.[/quote]

The answer is here as to why - not enough quality players going around,you have potential Premier players that are already playing Reserves now,that,if these players went to other clubs eg Western Toros,Flinders,Panthers there is 3 more Premier teams.
Okay still have a reserve side,but it should not be the 2nd strongest competition.
Premier Clubs should be allowed to have other Senior teams,when you have clubs like Sturt Marion,their div 3 side is purely a social team who want to stay part of the club, they probably dont even train much,they just love the game,just love the club.

[themagnet]

Are there any genuine Reserve players on this forum who would like to comment ?

Whether you agree or disagree,share your thoughts now,maybe by the time next season comes,might have something better in place.

[pvfc]

The answer is here as to why - not enough quality players going around,you have potential Premier players that are already playing Reserves now,that,if these players went to other clubs eg Western Strikers,Flinders,Panthers there is 3 more Premier teams.
Okay still have a reserve side,but it should not be the 2nd strongest competition.
Premier Clubs should be allowed to have other Senior teams,when you have clubs like Sturt Marion,their div 3 side is purely a social team who want to stay part of the club, they probably dont even train much,they just love the game,just love the club.

So what is really best thing going forward in the short term? Do we want to develop more high quality players who reach their full potential (lets say for arguments sake 1/3 more), or do we want to develop lets say 2/3 more reasonable grade players who only reach perhaps 70-80% of their potential?
We will never all agree on this, but a decision will have to be made by the powers to be.
I would say we need something in between, but we should be wary that forcing players who are almost at the level to be regulars in a Prems team to move on would potentially reduce the numbers of high quality players developed. I'll expain below;

Consider the following;
At a Prems club I believe that the players who are 'fringe' prems players (eg reserves) should be training with the premier league team as one 'squad' at least once a week if not all the time. This allows them to develop because they are training with high quality players who they can learn from and they get the training 'instensity' you get from training with a high quality squad.
If these same players instead moved to clubs where they are already considered to be some of the 'better' players then they may be 'limiting' their own development so not reaching their potential and becoming frustrated - but yes they would be helping to bring others up to (and in some cases possibly beyond) the level they were at when they were in another clubs 'reserves'.

So I believe what is needed in the next 2-3 years is to develop more of these 'high quality' players through the 'reserves system' so that there are then more players who are clearly Prems level (not almost Prems level) who are genuinely available or needing to move to the other clubs to hold down a starting 11 place. Only then will you get the players at potential 'new' Prems clubs training with players of the right calibre to bring out their full potential and we can reach the goal everyone wants in the long term.
One step at a time - if we try to run before we can walk we will only fall flat on our faces and things may even get worse instead of better.

Are there any genuine Reserve players on this forum who would like to comment ?

Whether you agree or disagree,share your thoughts now,maybe by the time next season comes,might have something better in place.

Players comments??

[The General]

I agree pvfc that it is a tricky one,would be curious to hear what Reserve Players think, if they were to have a forum somewhere,and were asked the question,
Would they prefer to stay where they are and continue playing that level,or, consider the opportunity of Playing Premier every week,but it would mean moving to another club ( one of the top 1st division clubs ) ? thereby creating extra teams in the top competition .

I would be very interested to know what they think ?

Having being involved more as a spectator then a coach of recent years, it seems to me that there doesnt seem to be as many of the more experienced players playing at the top level any more,even though in my opinion they are probably still good enough.
Is it their choice,or are they being "encouraged to play at a lower level" - i just feel they could be more valuable passing on their experience to fellow young and learning Premier players instead of in the divisional grades ?

Lets all keep the topic going,we are bound to come up with an agreeable situation eventually.

[pvfc]

The General - what I can see here are two separate issues; young players in their late teens who are still developing (but one way or another may or may not achieve their potential very soon), and older players who have been 'at the top' for a long time and are considering 'retiring' from the 'top level'.
My comments so far have related primarily to those 'younger' players. They may be too old for U17 but still have potential to develop into 'first string' prems players over the next couple of years (probably too late after that), and I have been questioning where is best for them to do this.
The older players considering 'retiring' from the 'top level' - I would be interested to hear whether they would be prepared to go to 'other clubs' and help them get a foothold in Prems, or if they just want to finish 'at the top' with their 'own club', or if they would just want to enjoy playing socially in their club's lower div social teams? I agree it would be great to see them spend a year or so helping develop the game by passing on thier experience to new prems players and/or clubs. It's not just potential new Prems clubs who could benefit from this - also existing Prems teams with very young squads could benefit too. It just needs experienced players who are willing to do this and give a little back to the game.

[The General]

The General - what I can see here are two separate issues; young players in their late teens who are still developing (but one way or another may or may not achieve their potential very soon), and older players who have been 'at the top' for a long time and are considering 'retiring' from the 'top level'.
My comments so far have related primarily to those 'younger' players. They may be too old for U17 but still have potential to develop into 'first string' prems players over the next couple of years (probably too late after that), and I have been questioning where is best for them to do this.
The older players considering 'retiring' from the 'top level' - I would be interested to hear whether they would be prepared to go to 'other clubs' and help them get a foothold in Prems, or if they just want to finish 'at the top' with their 'own club', or if they would just want to enjoy playing socially in their club's lower div social teams? I agree it would be great to see them spend a year or so helping develop the game by passing on thier experience to new prems players and/or clubs. It's not just potential new Prems clubs who could benefit from this - also existing Prems teams with very young squads could benefit too. It just needs experienced players who are willing to do this and give a little back to the game.

I agree with your thoughts pvfc. When I was still playing at a competitive level,coaches often spoke of a 7-4 combination,where you have 4 older experienced players and 7 future promising prospects as good combination to work with, from a development point of view,and they would still be a competitive team also. From the few Premier games I was able to see this year,just seemed like the balance was a little uneven towards the youth side of things.

[ARodgers]

I agree pvfc that it is a tricky one,would be curious to hear what Reserve Players think, if they were to have a forum somewhere,and were asked the question,
Would they prefer to stay where they are and continue playing that level,or, consider the opportunity of Playing Premier every week,but it would mean moving to another club ( one of the top 1st division clubs ) ? thereby creating extra teams in the top competition .

I would be very interested to know what they think ?

Having being involved more as a spectator then a coach of recent years, it seems to me that there doesnt seem to be as many of the more experienced players playing at the top level any more,even though in my opinion they are probably still good enough.
Is it their choice,or are they being "encouraged to play at a lower level" - i just feel they could be more valuable passing on their experience to fellow young and learning Premier players instead of in the divisional grades ?

Lets all keep the topic going,we are bound to come up with an agreeable situation eventually.

I think last year when reserves were removed showed us that players would prefer to stay where they are, we just had div 2 ending up stronger than div 1.