Do junior teams need a "Sweeper"

[Wild Eagle]

Question: if we are considering a 1-4-3-3, isn't the goalkeeper the sweeper, so to speak with, I would think, a flat back four?
Italian coaching for youth tends to prefer a flat 4 at the back and zonal defending, to encourage more involvement in team game by the players etc.

IMO, a sweeper is not the best thing to teach younger players, I guess it's more result oriented blah blah...jusdt my opinion

[BillShankly]

definately result orientated.

[Jeda]

definately result orientated.

so does that mean every position on the feild is "result orientated" when it comes to junior football if so lets make all comptetion small sided games

[Jeda]

Question: if we are considering a 1-4-3-3, isn't the goalkeeper the sweeper, so to speak with, I would think, a flat back four?
Italian coaching for youth tends to prefer a flat 4 at the back and zonal defending, to encourage more involvement in team game by the players etc.

IMO, a sweeper is not the best thing to teach younger players, I guess it's more result oriented blah blah...jusdt my opinion

ummm the goal keeper is the "goal keeper" it would be strange watching the keeper sweeping up after his defence was it Bordeaux that scored when the Bayern keeper decided to be the sweeper you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads today a fomation is only a means of keeping a structure on the field

[aquaman]

it would be strange watching the keeper sweeping up after his defence

you obviously dont look at what is going on behind the defence when you watch football then

you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia ... just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads

you might be surprised jeda, not sure if I have ever coached you though (or your son)

today a fomation is only a means of keeping a structure on the field

a lot of times the only way I know what formation teams are playing is how they line up at the kick off

keep up the constructive comments jeda, and use more smilies next time they accentuate all the good point you make

[Wild Eagle]

Question: if we are considering a 1-4-3-3, isn't the goalkeeper the sweeper, so to speak with, I would think, a flat back four?
Italian coaching for youth tends to prefer a flat 4 at the back and zonal defending, to encourage more involvement in team game by the players etc.

IMO, a sweeper is not the best thing to teach younger players, I guess it's more result oriented blah blah...jusdt my opinion

ummm the goal keeper is the "goal keeper" it would be strange watching the keeper sweeping up after his defence was it Bordeaux that scored when the Bayern keeper decided to be the sweeper you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads today a fomation is only a means of keeping a structure on the field

As far as the goalkeeper playing as sweeper in the Dutch system, I have a feeling it is not my random thought but actually a fact...in fact, while people like me go and get a life, why don't you have a look at the way Van der Sar played with Van Gaal's Ajax etc.

I speak only for myself but maybe somebody else may agree, the superstars are the players, football is my life and statistically speaking very few coaches ever take part in the educating process of a professional player, especially if part of amateur or "semi-pro" setups.

However, that doesn't mean we cannot discuss a fairly important thing, which is: do we teach the players to play football or do we put an extra insurance behind the defence, de facto taking away a player from the attack?

Do we show them that the important is not conceding goals, or playing with no fear and with creativity?

I wish Australian football luck, especially whoever you are coaching (if you do coach)

[Jeda]

it would be strange watching the keeper sweeping up after his defence

you obviously dont look at what is going on behind the defence when you watch football then

you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia ... just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads

you might be surprised jeda, not sure if I have ever coached you though (or your son)

today a fomation is only a means of keeping a structure on the field

a lot of times the only way I know what formation teams are playing is how they line up at the kick off

keep up the constructive comments jeda, and use more smilies next time they accentuate all the good point you make

you're funny the goal keepers role is a specialised one, they protect the goals in many ways hence the name "goal keeper" not sweeper
developed a few, good on ya don't be shy, please do tell

[Jeda]

Question: if we are considering a 1-4-3-3, isn't the goalkeeper the sweeper, so to speak with, I would think, a flat back four?
Italian coaching for youth tends to prefer a flat 4 at the back and zonal defending, to encourage more involvement in team game by the players etc.

IMO, a sweeper is not the best thing to teach younger players, I guess it's more result oriented blah blah...jusdt my opinion

ummm the goal keeper is the "goal keeper" it would be strange watching the keeper sweeping up after his defence was it Bordeaux that scored when the Bayern keeper decided to be the sweeper you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads today a fomation is only a means of keeping a structure on the field

very few coaches ever take part in the educating process of a professional player, especially if part of amateur or "semi-pro" setups.

do we teach the players to play football or do we put an extra insurance behind the defence, de facto taking away a player from the attack?

"very few coaches ever take part in the educating process". Shame that, since they play such a large part in a players soccer education :? but you're probably right, they're more likely broken
:? play football or extra insurance I don't get that http://library.thinkquest.org/27353/eng ... form1.html

[Jeda]

[Wild Eagle]

Ok, I will try and explain it better.

Point 1 - It does not happen to many coaches to coach kids that will become professional, the odds are extremely low, and so are the odds of players becoming professional.

Point 2 - If junior football should not focus on result, putting a sweeper means you are thinking about the result, it's hardly a positive attacking move to have a player between the defense and the goalkeeper. It's a matter of opinions.

Point 3 - If Australia is going indeed through the Dutch system, in that system the goalkeeper acts as sweeper, allowing the defensive line to play higher up the field and very short and compact, so in case of balls played behind the back it's the goalkeeper's responsibility to intercept the attack and start his team's attack by accurate distribution with his/her feet. Not for nothing it is not called the 4-3-3- system, but the 1-4-3-3 system.

[aquaman]

you're funny the goal keepers role is a specialised one, they protect the goals in many ways hence the name "goal keeper" not sweeper
developed a few, good on ya don't be shy, please do tell

My reply still stands Jeda, you thought it would be strange to see a GK sweeping behind the defense, I dont agree with that statement at all

As far as who I have developed, my name is Keith Rowling and I have been lucky enough to work with both SASI and/or FFSA Development Squads for the last 6 years or so, as well as starting coaching U19s and Reserves at South Adelaide back at the turn of the millenium, so you can probably work out some of the players I have had a small part in developing from that. I think this coaching forum is a good way to promote discussion and hopefully get coaches thinking about what and why they are doing the things that they do
So, let me know who you are I am interested in if I have coached you or your son in the past

[Jeda]

working with SASI &/or the FFSA does not bode well with me both organisations have a lot to answer where development of the game & players is concerned do either organisation listen to the people that get their hands dirty have either produced elite players that are the pride of australia sasi take players from clubs & don't even have the decency to corespond with clubs, no feedback, no nothing. then they go out & say "look at what we did" excuse me but where does the players start, what involvement did the clubs have
& the ffsa, don't even get me started there all I'll say is who do they answer to

[aquaman]

working with SASI &/or the FFSA does not bode well with me both organisations have a lot to answer where development of the game & players is concerned do either organisation listen to the people that get their hands dirty have either produced elite players that are the pride of australia sasi take players from clubs & don't even have the decency to corespond with clubs, no feedback, no nothing. then they go out & say "look at what we did" excuse me but where does the players start, what involvement did the clubs have
& the ffsa, don't even get me started there all I'll say is who do they answer to

As I said in my post (which was responding to a direct question that you asked earlier about the people on this thread developing state and national players) I have had a "small" part to play in some players development, along with parents, club and school coaches... now you move on to asking for players to be the "pride of australia", well a couple of them may well become just that, but then you will probably ask for which "world class players" have been developed... in other words you will never be satisfied...as far as keeping everyone happy, that is impossible to do, you are proof of that
by the way you never said who you are in your post

[rabbit]

He won't....but is happy to criticise everyone and everything that doesn't tickle his fancy

[Barney Rubble]

He won't....but is happy to criticise everyone and everything that doesn't tickle his fancy

must be related to Betty

[Jeda]

He won't....but is happy to criticise everyone and everything that doesn't tickle his fancy

we must be related i hear you kept your temper in check this year, well done

[Jeda]

As I said in my post (which was responding to a direct question that you asked earlier about the people on this thread developing state and national players) I have had a "small" part to play in some players development, along with parents, club and school coaches... now you move on to asking for players to be the "pride of australia", well a couple of them may well become just that, but then you will probably ask for which "world class players" have been developed... in other words you will never be satisfied...as far as keeping everyone happy, that is impossible to do, you are proof of that

by the way you never said who you are in your post

:? "by the way you never said who you are in your post" just as you have not answered mine but who cares

you guys should get a life & realise that you're all not super stars that are developing the youth of australia ... just look back & name all the players you've coached that are now playing overseas or in state & national squads

developed a few, good on ya don't be shy, please do tell

I have never change the goal post in this debate, unlike others

[rabbit]

He won't....but is happy to criticise everyone and everything that doesn't tickle his fancy

we must be related i hear you kept your temper in check this year, well done

No, not always..........

[MegaBonus]

greece played with a sweeper, 2 CB's and 2 wing backs this morning and got the job done...

to each their own but i still maintain thats its easier to teach at junior level than a zonal flat back 4...

[Jeda]

Point 3 - If Australia is going indeed through the Dutch system, in that system the goalkeeper acts as sweeper, allowing the defensive line to play higher up the field and very short and compact, so in case of balls played behind the back it's the goalkeeper's responsibility to intercept the attack and start his team's attack by accurate distribution with his/her feet. Not for nothing it is not called the 4-3-3- system, but the 1-4-3-3 system.

the goal keeper can be anything you want, as long as he keeps the ball out of the net hence the name "Keeper" or Goalkeeper" having the keeper represented in the formation description 1-4-3-3 or 1-4-5-1 or 1-4-1-2-1-2 & so on is the correct manner to represent a formation, since the keeper is also part of the team & on the field it does not mean sweeper

[James]

Point 3 - If Australia is going indeed through the Dutch system, in that system the goalkeeper acts as sweeper, allowing the defensive line to play higher up the field and very short and compact, so in case of balls played behind the back it's the goalkeeper's responsibility to intercept the attack and start his team's attack by accurate distribution with his/her feet. Not for nothing it is not called the 4-3-3- system, but the 1-4-3-3 system.

the goal keeper can be anything you want, as long as he keeps the ball out of the net hence the name "Keeper" or Goalkeeper" having the keeper represented in the formation description 1-4-3-3 or 1-4-5-1 or 1-4-1-2-1-2 & so on is the correct manner to represent a formation, since the keeper is also part of the team & on the field it does not mean sweeper

Did my coaching course many moons ago with David Miller. When he played in Malaysia he was employed as a skeeper. (sweepergoalkeeper)

[goal!!!]

mmhmh

interesting, however sweeper is an old fashioned idea. it does not work and most pro teams use the goalie as a sweeper rather than a player. Zone defence and allowing 4 sweepers effectively. the new aussie format removes a sweeper position, tell me how many teams in world cup or pro leagues do you see using a sweeper?

i think with junior the more we teach them defensive zone and man - on - man, the better they will be , we are not teachign bad habits or stunting a player from devleoping in a key role, it is hard but i believe it does come down to the coach and how he was taught or how much he is open to learn.

[Killa Pass]

never liked the role of a sweeper....!!!

[coachingsoccer]

Sweeper is somehow old fashioned idea, same as a libero. But still, if you have a kid that seems more than capable of playing in this position - good positioning, good anticipation, well commanding other players and such - it won't do him/her no harm to play sweeper. Any experience is important in player's development, any position he/she played in the past adds something to the skills possesed.
Besides, changing from sweeper to centre defender is a natural way of player development, with sweeper experience this position is well suited for this player.
You can't say - definitely yes or definitely no. If someone feels like playing this role, is doing pretty good at it, let it be. Worse if you make somebody play it when he/she doesn't feel good about it.

[MegaBonus]

Is the sweeper set for a return to prominence?

April 22, 2010

Jonathan Wilson recently wrote in his excellent ‘The Question’ series about the possibility of the return of the sweeper to football. The sweeper prospered as the ’spare man’ in a three-man central defence up against a two-man attack, so now we have two-man central defences up against one-man attacks, should one centre-back not become a sweeper?

The idea is music to the ears of anyone who fondly remembers Euro 96. The player of the tournament was Matthias Sammer, the sweeper in the German 3-4-1-2 system that went onto win the tournament. As well as being the most important player in defence, clearing up behind the two markers, he also had license to go forward and launch attacks, and found himself scoring (in open play) on more than one occasion.

Perhaps the German success at Euro 96 was what sparked the brief mid-late 90s obsession with three-man defences in England, but they are currently a thing of the past across most of Europe, and certainly in the Premiership.

So, against a lone striker, one of the centre-backs in theory has a license to attack. This has been the case at Arsenal this season, where William Gallas and Thomas Vermaelen often charge forward. It was also demonstrated in the first leg of the Bayern Munich v Manchester United tie, where centre-back Martin Demichelis stepped forward into the midfield. Sir Alex Ferguson’s introduction of Dimitar Berbatov was thought by some to be primarily to prevent the Argentine doing so.

But the reality is that it is suicidal to leave your defence equipped with just one centre-back (see Vermaelen’s error in Arsenal’s defeat to Manchester United earlier this year), particularly if the opposing striker is faster than him and able to move wide before outpacing his marker to the ball. Considering how popular one-striker formations are today, it is still extremely rare to see a centre-back constantly looking to power forward to bolster the midfield – it is simply too risky.

And so it is likely that the equivalent of a sweeper in future years will be a defensive midfielder dropping into the backline – with the centre-backs moving wide – rather than a centre-back pushing forward into the midfield. On this site, we have referred to this player as a centre-half (see Carsten Ramelow at Bayer Leverkusen, for example), such is the similarity in its nature to the ‘original’ centre-half, who permanently moved from the centre of midfield to the centre of defence.

The advantages? It widens the active playing area at both ends of the pitch, making it easier to keep possession, and tougher for the opposition to cover the space. It also creates a difficult situation for the opposition in terms of picking up players.

There are two interesting modern examples of this in action – and tellingly, they involve the best club side in the world, and (possibly) the best international side in the world.

Barcelona have played a system for the past two seasons where the deepest midfield player (either Yaya Toure or Sergio Busquets) drops into the centre of defence, with the centre-backs, Gerard Pique and Carles Puyol, spreading into extremely wide positions whilst Barcelona are in possession, almost on the touchlines. This allows Dani Alves and Eric Abidal/Maxwell, the full-backs, to bomb forward without fear of leaving the defence completely exposed.

Similarly, Brazil’s shape sees Gilberto Silva dropping into the defence (either in the centre of the two centre-backs, or to the right), allowing Maicon and Michel Bastos forward.


This diagram on the right shows how a switch from a four to a three-man defence when in possession can outwit the opposition. The problem with attacking full-backs at the moment is that they are never completely free to attack, they are always concerned about their defensive responsibilities, especially with the tendency for sides to deploy their most creative players as wingers. With a more reliable three-man defence, they can get to the opposition byline without leaving a huge hole at the back.

A big part of the switch is the role of the wide players on the Yellow side. Rather than stay wide (which would hamper the ability of the full-backs to get forward), they narrow and become almost a conventional front three. This has the effect of narrowing the opposition defence, as their natural markers (the White full-backs) follow them into the centre.

Of course, this opens up a huge amount of space on the flanks, which the full-backs can exploit. This presents a further problem for the Whites, as their wide midfield players are suddenly charged with almost a solely defensive job. If the Yellow full-backs get to the byline and the White wide midfielders track them all the way, the Whites will end up with something approaching a flat back six.

Furthermore, the evolved shape makes it relatively easy for the Yellows to keep possession – the three defenders and holding midfielder should be able to play their way around the two White strikers at the back.

So the advantages can be summarized as:

a) It allows the full-backs freedom to join the attack knowing the defence is covered

b) It makes keeping possession in defence easier

c) It stretches the play high up the pitch

d) If the opposition are playing creative players in wide areas, the centre-backs will be in a position to pick them up immediately.

e) It results in a system with three central forwards, an obvious goal threat

f) The opposition will be confused about who to pick up in wide areas

So, in theory, this system should work extremely well against a two-man attack, although it might face similar problems as the traditional three-man defence against one-man/three-man attacks. But the difference comes because the traditional three-man defence is a completely different system to the traditional four-man defence, which necessitates a different way of defending, and most likely a different selection of players. These shifts, as shown here by Brazil and Barcelona, are more flexible, and happen within games, rather than them lining up specifically like this. The system doesn’t have to shift against one- or three-man attacks, and therefore is free to adapt into a three-man defence when required, and stay as a four-man defence when that is more appropriate.

So what qualities would this modern sweeper, or modern centre-half, need? They would have to be a good reader of the game, an excellent passer (especially over long distances), a decent tackler and competent in the air, so they were not targeted when up against a tall striker. In other words, exactly the same as the old-style sweeper, and it is no coincidence that many of the more prominent examples of sweepers – Sammer, Lothar Matthuas, Ruud Gullit – were central midfielders earlier in their career.

Perhaps the most convincing case for their imminent reintroduction is the fact that most top Premiership clubs already have players who match the above description. Arsenal have Alex Song, Manchester United have Michael Carrick, Chelsea have Jon Obi Mikel, Manchester City have Gareth Barry or Vincent Kompany, Tottenham have Tom Huddlestone – all of whom would be comfortable dropping back to allow the full-backs to venture forward.

Of course, you also need certain types of players in other positions on the pitch. Your centre-backs must be good on the ball, your full-backs must have both pace and stamina, and your wide players must be comfortable drifting into the centre. Not all top-level clubs can boast these players, but football is certainly heading this way on all three counts.

If Brazil use this system on their way to winning the World Cup, expect it to feature more and more across European football in the next few years.

[Squizzy]

Megabonus,

What reference material are you quoting? The reason I ask is that there was supposed to be a diagram(s) but obviously you weren't able to attach it (them).

[MegaBonus]

i read the article on the following website.....probably the best site re: tactical discussion and evaluation ive come across. check it out.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/