Suggestions for improvement of refereeing standards.

[marooned]

I would like to suggest the recruitment starts with match payment of between $250 to $300 per game per Premier League refs. A pool of refs selected on performance and compedence level. This would have to be supervised by a quality ref overseer that actually goes to games and assess's their performance he could also be the recruitment officer in charge of advertising to attract more refs.. The SAASL could use their/our million dollar investment to help pay for and develop this group. This would be a big carrot to dangle to get more refs into the system therefore a flow through effect to the lower divisions. The referee incentive for club refs has not worked as it was intended. It has not got more refs into the system and has not improved the standard for reserve games. The first team refs if fit enough could be used for these games at a fixed fee of say $100. After all the crowds get very restless before a 1st team game if the ressies have been given a bath by a club ref that clearly favors the home team.

[Funky Punk]

You will still have losing teams whingeing about the crap referee costing them the game on the forum every weekend, but hey, submit your proposals to the SAASL and see what they say.

[Robbo]

I would like to suggest the recruitment starts with match payment of between $250 to $300 per game per Premier League refs. A pool of refs selected on performance and compedence level. This would have to be supervised by a quality ref overseer that actually goes to games and assess's their performance he could also be the recruitment officer in charge of advertising to attract more refs.. The SAASL could use their/our million dollar investment to help pay for and develop this group. This would be a big carrot to dangle to get more refs into the system therefore a flow through effect to the lower divisions. The referee incentive for club refs has not worked as it was intended. It has not got more refs into the system and has not improved the standard for reserve games. The first team refs if fit enough could be used for these games. After all the crowds get very restless before a 1st team game if the ressies have been given a bath by a club ref that clearly favors the home team.

The league would still want to make a profit per year, so the only way i can see that happening is by charging the clubs / players a higher fee. And they have frozen fees for the next 2 seasons have they not ?

I agree that referees here are grossly underpaid - for what they go thru each week there should be a higher wage for them.

I fear more money will bring in more refs - but not more QUALITY refs..

I still don't think the Ref on the weekend for our game was bad at all !! I'm sure that's what is driving you to push this issue marooned.

That being said, yes overall our refs arent get any younger and we need a good new crop through. I'd like to see those young linesman given more freedom to make decisions (if only for experience) rather than to be told "only offsides or throw-ins."

[Funky Punk]

I agree that referees here are grossly underpaid - for what they go through each week there should be a higher wage for them.

I fear more money will bring in more refs - but not more QUALITY refs.

Agree with you on both counts.

[nugget66]

I agree totally with you marooned, the current situation with referee quality & numbers isn't & hasn't improved over the last few years in the SAASL Premier League & it certainly is a area that the Association needs to address other wise they may loose a disilllusioned Premier League Club to the FFSA which would be a disaster for our elite competition.

I also believe money is the answer to the problem we have of the lack of quality referee's in the Premier League & believe if we pay more than the FFSA pays there referee's we will attract quality career referee's from there association to our's.
If Premier League clubs are going to pay the dollars to the referee's then they also should have the right to evaluate them & if a referee gets a few bad reports send a supervisor to see him the next week if he is bad drop him, to lower grade on alot less money that will improve the quality ROBBO.

I'm talking about the Premier League the elite competition of our association paying more for better quality referee's we all have a vested interested that this competition is the best it can be. Marooned I only hope that you are on a crusade to help improve this situation because from what I've seen in our competition this year it won't be too long before I wont go to a game because of frustration.

[marooned]

Our loss on the weekend had nothing to do with the ref Robbo. I started on about ref standards the week before at the Florina game which we won. Not intersested in excuses just interested in improving the quality and numbers. if I had wanted to say anything I would have mentioned the three clear hand balls, three clear penalties not given, the free kicks given to players while they played the ball while they were on the ground! The elbow, i spoke to one of your supporters at half time and he said he couldnt believe the ref missed it, the overruling of throws ins given by the linesman in a much better position to see. The rugby tackle laid on Mark Kelly only to be rewarded with a free kick to the tackler. The fact is I hadnt mentioned any of that Robbo. Hey and we got away with some stuff too. I also didnt mention that I was told a linesman and the ref are associated with Ingle Farm by way of family members playing for the club, yes its a worry but good clubs get on with the job and dont let small stuff override the big picture. I also note that you were on the BBQ most of the game and didnt see much. So no I never mentioned any of that, I could have but I didnt.

Only interested in moving on and getting some suggestions as to how we as a collective group go about improving the competition we all love and want to see grow and prosper. Sitting on hands wont get us anywhere. So if you dont have a suggestion then dont comment on what my motives are.

[robinfriday10]

paying $250-300 is a bit much (maybe $130), super league is $140. don't think giving the clubs the right to evaluate would be of any point as many people think they know the rules but Don't. the league would need to bring in inspectors for each premier league game and these people would also need to be reinbursed. also increase the fees for linesman(prefer E&D junior refs as they generally do a good job and after time should start getting middles). could potentially cost clubs $300 per game which is fine for strongly supported clubs but newer , smaller clubs would battle to find those costs.

then again marooned $300 per game great idea

[guti]

Can clubs afford $250 for refs every fortnight?

[Knight7]

Firstly I believe we must be lucky this year, apart from last Sunday (where the ref was really poor) we have had some very good referees -and we have lost more than we have won

that being said if they don't already they should

1) Rank Referees
2) Pay More
3) Try and get Federation Players to referee on Sundays - best ref we have had this year was B's v San Marco and he was a Federation Player - lets face it most of them are after the money offer a free course for currently registered players etc

[East Boy]

I suppose we are looking for ex players and even supporters of the game (who understand it well) to become the future refs. But who on here would actually become a ref?
Would $200 get people to stop playing later in life (o/35's) to become a ref? I'm not sure i would give up playing to become a ref.....
Do the current SAASL refs have to train? I spoke with a ref who does FFSA and SAASL and they are training 2 nights per week.
There is certainly some money to be made for becoming a ref, but would it just be the same old refs, but getting more coin?
It would certainly become a costly exercise for someone. Either the SAASL would have to cover the extra cost or clubs would have to stump up the extra. Either way someone will be making less money..... i have a feeling it wouldnt be the saasl.

[Robbo]

Yeh I spewin I missed the first 25 mins of the match admittedly on the BBQ, but I was still sort of watching.. And BTW you were very patient waiting 10 mins for your yiros too

Look I referee our C's, and even that is stressful enough, so i look at it from a refereeing point of view. It isn't easy at the best of times. You know every decision you make that will will more than likely cop abuse from either side of the pitch.. probably 60-70% of the time.

Takes a brave referee to give a hard decision in front of the opposition supporters. Not easy to find people like that.

One issue I have heard rattled around over the years is that refs aren't interested in amateurs due to safety concerns. To me at the end of the day a club MUST HAVE a solid code of conduct for players, coaches, officials and spectators. Now yours and our club (and probably most others in the premier league) have a system in place but it is really up to a lot of the lower league clubs to take some responsibility here.

If I was a referee that has been offered say $250 to do a match, with no hint of any danger on the day, then that would be great. But over the years in amateurs I have seen referee's abused, assaulted, chased, followed home.. all sorts. So the way I see it is that is as much a club issue so much as a league issue. I think heavy fines for a club that allows the wrong thing to happen on a match day will help to weed out these clubs and help to pay better wages for the referees in general. That should bring a better product all around.

One more thing - I looked at going into refereeing properly the other season, I was shocked that the referee's association (or whatever the legal body is called) charge you $50-$120 or something like that to even become a referee. Then you have to pay for a referee's uniform on top of that. So for the $80 a week or whatever a ref gets paid - say 20 games a season, thats just $1600 odd bucks minus the refs personal expenses. This to me is wrong when the whole state is screaming for more referees.

[Robbo]

And another point just to defend a referee, much like players, they can have a good game or a bad day too. They are only human.

[marooned]

robinfriday said on tuesday

then again marooned $300 per game great idea

Would you ref for that kind of money Brad? I would if I could, and so would many more. Reimburstment from the SAASL (our money)would cover a lot of the cost so that is not a problem (only need 5 to 10 quality refs).Speculate to accumilate. there are many guys out there that would ref but not for $85. Fight fire with fire, the FFSA dont want refs to do SAASL games and numbers are our only guide to the effect of this ruling. We have a big bank balance use it to draw quality and develop quality referees. Never enter a gunfight with a knife.

[grouse n' ice]

I say punish bad decisions via the anus. Bruno at West Beach said he would happily dish out the weekly punishments. He once wrestled a live erection with his bare tongue!

[swannsong]

The difficult decision to make about whether to take up refereeing or not is....if your a loyal club man you miss out on watching your own club. Added to that you become something of a social leper after the game.
If you can shake hands with players that have knocked the crap out of you all day, treat referees the same way. Show some hospitality and share a drink with them.
I enjoyed refereeing about 90% of the time, the other 10% was mostly the crap that comes from the sidelines, not on the field.
Some spectators, club officials and even coaches need to look at themselves very closely.
The minute they start hurling abuse at a referee's error or call that they don't agree with sets the example for the players on the field...particularly if that vocal criticism comes from coaches, assistant coaches or the bench
The SAASL need to come down harder in this area to make refereeing more attractive.
Also the depletion of referees has affected Reserves games and this often sets the tone for the A's to follow.
Something needs to be done soon as we are currently at rock bottom.

[MUMPHY]

can i say as a ref it would be a lot easier getting some buy in from the clubs on improving their supporters behaviour. i travelled 90 kms for 70 bucks the other sunday to get abused by supporters screaming they were gonna effing lynch me as i hadnt spotted an elbow in to "their keepers head" when the keeper get up holding his stomach saying "its ok ref just a bit winded" get serious ! Half of the yellow cards dished out are instigated by the crowd winding up the players who stupidly then take it out on the ref verbally, or another player.
I play regular on saturdays and do reffing sundays because i actually love reffing and feel i do an ok job and if i'm doing an ok job then the teams are getting something out of it.Lately though when you get some of the aggro you get and you thank your lucky stars you werent at some game where a refs been assaulted you think ......whats the point?
And just to add to that last week i was playing...cruising 3 nil up after 70 mins the ball hits my belly ( round as ) nowhere near my arms and ref after pointing for a corner then signals a penalty !!!!! wtf BUT I TOOK IT AND DIDNT GET BOOKED SENT OFF OR KARATE KICKED ANYONE !!!!!!!

[Wraith]

can i say as a ref it would be a lot easier getting some buy in from the clubs on improving their supporters behaviour. i travelled 90 kms for 70 bucks the other sunday to get abused by supporters screaming they were gonna effing lynch me as i hadnt spotted an elbow in to "their keepers head" when the keeper get up holding his stomach saying "its ok ref just a bit winded" get serious ! Half of the yellow cards dished out are instigated by the crowd winding up the players who stupidly then take it out on the ref verbally, or another player.I play regular on saturdays and do reffing sundays because i actually love reffing and feel i do an ok job and if i'm doing an ok job then the teams are getting something out of it.Lately though when you get some of the aggro you get and you thank your lucky stars you werent at some game where a refs been assaulted you think ......whats the point?
And just to add to that last week i was playing...cruising 3 nil up after 70 mins the ball hits my belly ( round as ) nowhere near my arms and ref after pointing for a corner then signals a penalty !!!!! wtf BUT I TOOK IT AND DIDNT GET BOOKED SENT OFF OR KARATE KICKED ANYONE !!!!!!!

An excellent point.

[rooboy1986]

Provide a safer working environment and they will come.

I've spoken to a few refs in my time, people who ref don't do so for the money, they do it because they love the game.

A few points i have made in the past to SAASL:

Use your money to make the following changes to clubs, starting with Div 1 in the first year and work your way down over time, could even be co-costed with club and SAASL:

1. Add an extra room to make a specific refs room with shower, toilet, table, chairs etc - lockable and secure
2. Mandate fencing for all matches, whether it be via rope or like normal boundary fencing
3. 3 White coats per team - mandatory - to report to ref before kick-off

I guarantee once working conditions improve then more refs will come.

Paying more is also a good idea.

[marooned]

roo boy suggeted

1. Add an extra room to make a specific refs room with shower, toilet, table, chairs etc - lockable and secure
2. Mandate fencing for all matches, whether it be via rope or like normal boundary fencing
3. 3 White coats per team - mandatory - to report to ref before kick-off

POINT 1 Extra room cost between 30,000 to 40,000 dollars per club times 20 premier clubs = near on a million bucks.

POINT 2 Council regulation prohibit such fencing, a rope would not do a thing.

POINT 3 Already do it. White coat yellow bibs same thing. Ask any ref that has been to the Downs in the last 5 years and they will tell you they are treated with respect and courtousy even if they have an off day.

Many regulations have been tried and failed. What we need is quality refs not barriers.

[tickets4cheese]

roo boy suggeted

1. Add an extra room to make a specific refs room with shower, toilet, table, chairs etc - lockable and secure
2. Mandate fencing for all matches, whether it be via rope or like normal boundary fencing
3. 3 White coats per team - mandatory - to report to ref before kick-off

POINT 1 Extra room cost between 30,000 to 40,000 dollars per club times 20 premier clubs = near on a million bucks.

POINT 2 Council regulation prohibit such fencing, a rope would not do a thing.

POINT 3 Already do it. White coat yellow bibs same thing. Ask any ref that has been to the Downs in the last 5 years and they will tell you they are treated with respect and courtousy even if they have an off day.

Many regulations have been tried and failed. What we need is quality refs not barriers.

have u started this topic to ask for suggestions just so u can shoot people down when they make them and then go on about how great the downs are?

[marooned]

No tickets just been down that path before and want new fresh suggestions. or new ideas that dont pamper bad quality referees. A room and a chair a fence and some white coats will not improve the quality of the current referees.

[robinfriday10]

[

Would you ref for that kind of money [/quote]

i currently do it for a lot less

a rope on the sidelines isn't a bad idea as it could make someone think before they run onto the park....it also keeps the crowd back from the linesman. with three officials/white coats spaced 20 metres apart on the other side of the rope would give the ref a bit more confident his wellbeing is being looked ater. a combination of things are required to coax refs from ffsa over........most of these have been brought up ......once again

[marooned]

I would have to build a room next to the new referees room just to house the three hundred metres of rope. I cant speak for the lower diivsions but Sunday Premier Teams have no safety issues with referees. Quality is the problem.

[Rob Lozza]

OMG...where does one start?

Some of the suggestions made in this thread are very good but it needs to be pointed out, however, that some are already meant to be followed. For example, all clubs are supposed to have separate changing facilities for the home team, away team and match officials. (The officials are discouraged from sharing facilities with either team.) This requirement is in the competition rules somewhere but is clearly not being followed by many clubs for whatever reasons. There is also no need for any rope. Boundaries marked on the ground beyond the field of play should be sufficient so long as there are Club Marshalls and Officials who do their part by ensuring their supporters do not cross them. Some clubs are good at doing this but they are in the minority. So often I have seen people wearing the Club Marshall vest or Official IDs who have NFI and are unable to answer a simple question like who should I speak to to get hold of team sheets and passes. Again, these requirements are also in the competition rules.

I have doubts that offering $300 per match would improve any standards. There are already some officials who do games on Fridays, Saturdays or Mondays (FFSA) and Sundays (SAASL). How much do they get paid for FFSA games? Nowhere near $300 and if anyone did get this sort of amount, would there then be income tax issues to consider?

Instead of pointing the finger at Referees all the time for 22 nil scores etc, it would also be a great help if punters read the Laws Of The Game and at least make an attempt to know them. This forum is littered with examples that clearly demonstrate that some people have NFI, including FFSA Super League players. (I put my hand up and will be the first to admit I was one of "them" until I got off my arse and read the LOTG a few years ago.)

Keep the discussion going and ideas flowing. It's healthy.

[MUMPHY]

Moneys not the answer.As someone pointed out earlier most of us refs do it for the love of the game and spend half our fee on fuel some days.Personally i'd rather see funds put into every game having 2 trained linesmen.It causes ill feeling when you have some clubs putting some guy forward who has his mobile phone or a can of beer in his hand until you point out that maybe isn't the best way to add to his credibility.Two decent linesman would help me,and more importantly help ease tension with players and crowds.As for the mention of the rules thats bang on lol i lose count of how many times i have had someone say every season "ere ref can you be offside from a goalkick"?
*** Constructive meetings by referee and league officials at clubs monthly meeting highlighting crowd/player and ref concerns. ( GET AWAY FROM THE US AND THEM MENTALITY )
*** 2 decent linesmen
*** invite coaches/club officials to our referee classroom coaching sessions so they see both sides
*** set the crowd perimeter back further ( might not be possible at some grounds )

I'm not an ideas man but it would be a start

[gunner_59]

I agree that money is not the answer... people give their time to do it because of their passion for the game. There should be, however, a better renumeration than what is being given out. A referee doing Div 1 gets $85. Considering that he has to be there 45 minutes before a game, is usually there for about 20 minutes after a game, has an average of 1 hour in travelling time it sure starts to add up to a lot of the day devoted to earning $85. So those people who make snide comments about referees doing it for the money are laughable.
I can see Maroon's point about injecting more Level 1 and Level 2 refs in to the mix for the top couple of divisions but it just ain't gonna happen. The SAASL competition, somewhat unfairly, suffers from an image problem. The League should really be using some of its money to address this... it's stopping experienced refs and newly qualified refs from considering the Amateur League.
The problem is not with the top divisions.. these clubs have their house in order (some more so than others). The problem is with blooding new refs... just think about this for a moment.. it takes 5 years to have the experience to start tackling the Div 1 games. So for 5 years, these new refs have to put up with lower clubs with poor disciplinary records or have very little capacity to run a club to the standards required ie they don't have non playing members to take on board such things as stewards, match officials, etc. A lot of them are there to turn up for a game. So, for new refs, it is a minefield for a few years... many give it away before they get a chance to do the more disciplined clubs in higher divisions.
One of the big factors that stops a new referee from progressing faster than the usual 5 years is the lack of Inspectors. There are 2 fully fledged Inspectors (and athird who can inspect Level 3 refs). So these new refs start to build up experience but they only get inspected twice a year!! So it's not just referee that are need.. money needs to be thrown at gaining more inspectors.

[GULLY BOYZ]

I say punish bad decisions via the anus. Bruno at West Beach said he would happily dish out the weekly punishments. He once wrestled a live erection with his bare tongue!

You are one sick puppy !!

[Reverberation]

Provide a safer working environment and they will come.

I've spoken to a few refs in my time, people who ref don't do so for the money, they do it because they love the game.

A few points i have made in the past to SAASL:

Use your money to make the following changes to clubs, starting with Div 1 in the first year and work your way down over time, could even be co-costed with club and SAASL:

1. Add an extra room to make a specific refs room with shower, toilet, table, chairs etc - lockable and secure
2. Mandate fencing for all matches, whether it be via rope or like normal boundary fencing
3. 3 White coats per team - mandatory - to report to ref before kick-off

I guarantee once working conditions improve then more refs will come.

Paying more is also a good idea.

Points one and two have been in place in Perth for many years.

[Ernie Cooksey]

Top thread. A bloody good read and some excellent points being made.
I'd love to see some suggestions actually put in place, even to just start with both 1st divs initially.
Would the formation of a Players' Rep. Group/ Committee be a good idea to liaise with the League and the Ref's on a regular basis? It would help to provide a forum where such suggestions can be heard in an official capacity, and therefore recorded and followed up.

[rooboy1986]

Provide a safer working environment and they will come.

I've spoken to a few refs in my time, people who ref don't do so for the money, they do it because they love the game.

A few points i have made in the past to SAASL:

Use your money to make the following changes to clubs, starting with Div 1 in the first year and work your way down over time, could even be co-costed with club and SAASL:

1. Add an extra room to make a specific refs room with shower, toilet, table, chairs etc - lockable and secure
2. Mandate fencing for all matches, whether it be via rope or like normal boundary fencing
3. 3 White coats per team - mandatory - to report to ref before kick-off

I guarantee once working conditions improve then more refs will come.

Paying more is also a good idea.

Points one and two have been in place in Perth for many years.

I'm sure i've been playing amateurs div 1 for many years, i haven't seen many (maybe 1 or 2) clubs with refs room

and there sure isn't fencing at any of the grounds...