Power04 wrote:I think the Referee debate/discussion should be resarected, take us off talking about the SAASL and pherhaps even trying to help them with a few ideas.
Agree with most of the posts on here, the club ref will always be considered biased by the oppostition and especially after he makes a bad call.
This is for you "Talk is Cheap" (aka Bill).
Couple of suggestions to help improve the Club Ref initiative:
1) Clubs instead of providing a Club Ref for there Reserves, should provide for the alternate day reserves, ie Sat club to provide for Sun club & vice versa
This way the club volunteers can still help there clubs and watch there club games.
2) Proper Referee uniforms to be worn. (you'd be suprised how this changes the view of the Ref) Not these flouresenct jackets.
Any other suggestions?
You have obviously never been a ref or a volunteer just someone that comes up with dopey ideas. So to improve the initiative this is your best 2 suggestions.
Firstly the club ref is a clubperson before they are a ref so why would you go to another club on another day on the other side of town maybe to ref. If you were going to do it you may as well become a ref full stop.
Secondly we dont need to change the view of the ref so much but more so the way they are treated by players and supporters sometimes even their own.
But keep thinking of ideas you might land a good one sometime especially if you look at it from a refereeing point of view rather than a playing one
I also noticed a few twelve year old "official" linesman last year. These poor kids are scared shitless by aggressive crowds and often make poor decisions as a result of it. Its not their fault, as they're trying their best. Its the fault of the amatuer league for putting them in there. The league should be aiming at uni students who need the extra cash and can take a bit of stick. I feel that they arent really making enough effort in this area. Advertise at uni's, offer incentives, surely they can attract more then a handful of grandads and a couple of kids???[/quote]
Most of these kids are E&D refs on Saturdays and E&D ref assoc is probably the best developer of refs from a young age. Merlin and others do a fantastic job mentoring these kids more that what FFSA do. So lets not scare them away at this point because they are the future refs of our comp.
I applaud SAASL & E&D for working together to start this initiative so dont blame them at least they are doing something about trying to improve the situation.
lefty wrote:I also noticed a few twelve year old "official" linesman last year. These poor kids are scared shitless by aggressive crowds and often make poor decisions as a result of it. Its not their fault, as they're trying their best. Its the fault of the amatuer league for putting them in there. The league should be aiming at uni students who need the extra cash and can take a bit of stick. I feel that they arent really making enough effort in this area. Advertise at uni's, offer incentives, surely they can attract more then a handful of grandads and a couple of kids???
Most of these kids are E&D refs on Saturdays and E&D ref assoc is probably the best developer of refs from a young age. Merlin and others do a fantastic job mentoring these kids more that what FFSA do. So lets not scare them away at this point because they are the future refs of our comp.
I applaud SAASL & E&D for working together to start this initiative so dont blame them at least they are doing something about trying to improve the situation.[/quote]
i agree, it is good that these young kids are getting involved and a shame some supporters from clubs get stuck into the poor kids, i wonder how many of the people dishing out the abuse would take the flag to run the line if we didn't have these kids doing it.
"My best moment? I have a lot of good moments but the one I prefer is when I kicked the hooligan." - King Eric
Power04 wrote:I think the Referee debate/discussion should be resarected, take us off talking about the SAASL and pherhaps even trying to help them with a few ideas.
Agree with most of the posts on here, the club ref will always be considered biased by the oppostition and especially after he makes a bad call.
This is for you "Talk is Cheap" (aka Bill).
Couple of suggestions to help improve the Club Ref initiative:
1) Clubs instead of providing a Club Ref for there Reserves, should provide for the alternate day reserves, ie Sat club to provide for Sun club & vice versa
This way the club volunteers can still help there clubs and watch there club games.
2) Proper Referee uniforms to be worn. (you'd be suprised how this changes the view of the Ref) Not these flouresenct jackets.
Any other suggestions?
There's no "Bill" in my name, I've been aka other names but not "Bill" !
The uniform is a good idea but as for doing other teams games let me quote someone who has a similar view to mine..
the gloves are off !! wrote:
I think you will find that club referees are loyal clubmen who will want to be where their team is, to assign them to other teams games will see less putting their hands up to do it.
Wherever they go they will make mistakes and be perceived as being biased.
At least their home club might offer them some sense of personal safety !
Its hard enough getting someone from your club to do the course to do your OWN GAMES. What on earth makes you think that they would ever be interested in doing anyone elses. Thats got to be one of the stupidest suggestions i have heard.
And i dont see what is wrong with the ref's just wearing the bibs that the SAASL provided this season rather than a full uniform, how much do you think that will end up costing and do you think the league will pay the bill for that? If you get 2 or 3 people from your club to do the course so that during the season they only have to ref a few games each it works out a lot better. And guess what, they can share the bib, they cant share a uniform.
Granted some of the home ref's do make some dodgy decisions, but i would say on the whole that it is more a case of making a mistake than cheating or being biased. After all how many players & spectators find fault in the official ref's that do the first team games. Its not because they are cheating or being biased either its simply a case of human error.
Anyone who ref's a game should be applauded because it is no easy task and the fact that most of the decisions he makes will be questioned by one side or the other means he is nearly always in a no win situation.
As for the young lads who were running the line throughout the season, rather than get on their back, offer them encouragement because if we dont get these lads coming through then it wont be to long before there is no one to officiate games. And like any young players, these guys are LEARNING the game. If they aint getting the experience then how do you expect their decision making to improve?
Statto11 wrote:Its hard enough getting someone from your club to do the course to do your OWN GAMES. What on earth makes you think that they would ever be interested in doing anyone elses. Thats got to be one of the stupidest suggestions i have heard.
It's not hard, tell teams they must provide one for each team they have. Make it a condition of entry to the league that you provide someone. Get a few people at your club and you'd only have to one day a month (if that).
Things I am owed because they're too tight to pay up:
Colossus: One House
Costa: One Lunch
Oh and add in
Colossus: one photo and one letter from his "attorney".
Statto11 wrote:Its hard enough getting someone from your club to do the course to do your OWN GAMES. What on earth makes you think that they would ever be interested in doing anyone elses. Thats got to be one of the stupidest suggestions i have heard.
It's not hard, tell teams they must provide one for each team they have. Make it a condition of entry to the league that you provide someone. Get a few people at your club and you'd only have to one day a month (if that).
Some clubs do find it harder than others to find someone willing to ref a game. And it technically was a condition for last season that clubs had to provide a minimum of one ref for the home reserve games.
We actually had two people do the course last year and they did alternate home games which worked out well. But not every team has that luxury. But my main point was why would you want to go and ref at another teams games, when you dont follow them and dont have any affinity with the club? And it would mean giving up another part of your weekend? I could understand it if you go and watch the other teams games and have mates playing there but then wouldnt that bring us back to the whole favourtism argument?
let's no bite the hand that feeds us !
sure some of the junior linesmen made mistakes but so do experienced referees.
In a few years time we will reap the benifit with young experienced lines men.
I have watched a few E&D junior games & some of those junior referees will be fantastic for our competition in a few years.
It's up to each & every club to stop the abuse dished to the referees by there supporters otherwise we will be in serious trouble as we were a few years ago!
Give our league & these kids credit!
As the guy said in the movie the wanderers " leave the kid alone "
nugget66 wrote:let's no bite the hand that feeds us !
sure some of the junior linesmen made mistakes but so do experienced referees.
In a few years time we will reap the benifit with young experienced lines men. I have watched a few E&D junior games & some of those junior referees will be fantastic for our competition in a few years.
It's up to each & every club to stop the abuse dished to the referees by there supporters otherwise we will be in serious trouble as we were a few years ago!
Give our league & these kids credit!
As the guy said in the movie the wanderers " leave the kid alone "
Agree with pretty much all of that (except the bit in purple as I've never seen an E&D junior game)
I have no problems with the kids, its just an obsveration ive made through-out the season. All I was saying it might be a good idea to target middle aged people who were in need of some extra cash. ie. University Students.
Are you guys confident we will have enough referees even with the new Metropolitan League possibly starting up?
redders wrote:I have no problems with the kids, its just an obsveration ive made through-out the season. All I was saying it might be a good idea to target middle aged people who were in need of some extra cash. ie. University Students.
Are you guys confident we will have enough referees even with the new Metropolitan League possibly starting up?
how many middle aged uni students are there out there?
Things I am owed because they're too tight to pay up:
Colossus: One House
Costa: One Lunch
Oh and add in
Colossus: one photo and one letter from his "attorney".
redders wrote:I have no problems with the kids, its just an obsveration ive made through-out the season. All I was saying it might be a good idea to target middle aged people who were in need of some extra cash. ie. University Students.
Are you guys confident we will have enough referees even with the new Metropolitan League possibly starting up?
how many middle aged uni students are there out there?
sorry younger middle aged. 20+ dont consider that middle aged?
redders wrote:sorry younger middle aged. 20+ dont consider that middle aged?
If 20 is middle aged then when can i get my pension?
Who cares about you and your age mate. I'm wanting to get some decent, mature and fit referees in the league. Im trying to find out why we have low ref numbers by discussing some of these issues. Why do we have an handful of older middle aged blokes and a handful of under 15's? Are we going to have enough referees next year? Considering were coming up against a competition that will likely be offereing more to ref per game. What are we going to do about it?
redders wrote:sorry younger middle aged. 20+ dont consider that middle aged?
If 20 is middle aged then when can i get my pension?
Who cares about you and your age mate. I'm wanting to get some decent, mature and fit referees in the league. Im trying to find out why we have low ref numbers by discussing some of these issues. Why do we have an handful of older middle aged blokes and a handful of under 15's? Are we going to have enough referees next year? Considering were coming up against a competition that will likely be offereing more to ref per game. What are we going to do about it?
I certainly care about me and my age.
as soon as people put up suggestions they are slapped back down. Our club won't be able to do it etc.. People want the problem fixed fixed but they're not prepared to put themselves out in order to fix it.
Things I am owed because they're too tight to pay up:
Colossus: One House
Costa: One Lunch
Oh and add in
Colossus: one photo and one letter from his "attorney".
Hawkesy wrote:
If 20 is middle aged then when can i get my pension?
Who cares about you and your age mate. I'm wanting to get some decent, mature and fit referees in the league. Im trying to find out why we have low ref numbers by discussing some of these issues. Why do we have an handful of older middle aged blokes and a handful of under 15's? Are we going to have enough referees next year? Considering were coming up against a competition that will likely be offereing more to ref per game. What are we going to do about it?
I certainly care about me and my age.
as soon as people put up suggestions they are slapped back down. Our club won't be able to do it etc.. People want the problem fixed fixed but they're not prepared to put themselves out in order to fix it.
I realise there are slappers out there. Ignore the slappers Your idea has merit, set the precedent.
I'm wanting to get some decent, mature and fit referees in the league. Im trying to find out why we have low ref numbers by discussing some of these issues. Why do we have an handful of older middle aged blokes and a handful of under 15's? Are we going to have enough referees next year? Considering were coming up against a competition that will likely be offereing more to ref per game. What are we going to do about it?..............
I think it is an advantage if a referee has had some 'lengthy' experience as a player. Ideally, getting them anywhere between 25-40 would be great. One reason why we don't get many referees who have been former players in this age range is that they have opportunities to continue playing with their mates in over age leagues. Sure, even if we managed to get 40 year olds, it takes a new referee with any sort of potential around 5-7 years to reach the stage where they could comfortably manage a Sunday Div 1 game. So that would make them fast reaching 50. So how many years can we benefit from an experienced referee under these circumstances? 5-8 years? 10 years? The referee population is ageing fast... many would like to stop or decrease their commitments but are continually asked to keep contributing ..... and there are now heaps of requests to do extra eg schoolboys competitions, junior club games, etc
Trying to get university students has been tried before (twice in the last 5 years). Quite a few came out (many attracted to earning some extra money while studying) but unfortunately many of them had no idea of the game (ie minimal or no experience as a player).
So yes.. it would be great to get mature people to become referees because they're the only ones who will be able to handle the immature behaviour of so many players and spectators who are not that much younger than they are.
gunner_59 wrote:I'm wanting to get some decent, mature and fit referees in the league. Im trying to find out why we have low ref numbers by discussing some of these issues. Why do we have an handful of older middle aged blokes and a handful of under 15's? Are we going to have enough referees next year? Considering were coming up against a competition that will likely be offereing more to ref per game. What are we going to do about it?..............
I think it is an advantage if a referee has had some 'lengthy' experience as a player. Ideally, getting them anywhere between 25-40 would be great. One reason why we don't get many referees who have been former players in this age range is that they have opportunities to continue playing with their mates in over age leagues. Sure, even if we managed to get 40 year olds, it takes a new referee with any sort of potential around 5-7 years to reach the stage where they could comfortably manage a Sunday Div 1 game. So that would make them fast reaching 50. So how many years can we benefit from an experienced referee under these circumstances? 5-8 years? 10 years? The referee population is ageing fast... many would like to stop or decrease their commitments but are continually asked to keep contributing ..... and there are now heaps of requests to do extra eg schoolboys competitions, junior club games, etc
Trying to get university students has been tried before (twice in the last 5 years). Quite a few came out (many attracted to earning some extra money while studying) but unfortunately many of them had no idea of the game (ie minimal or no experience as a player).
So yes.. it would be great to get mature people to become referees because they're the only ones who will be able to handle the immature behaviour of so many players and spectators who are not that much younger than they are.
Fair enough - I can see how we are struggling for numbers and that the university idea may have its drawbacks. Thanks for the feedback gunner.
redders wrote:I have no problems with the kids, its just an obsveration ive made through-out the season. All I was saying it might be a good idea to target middle aged people who were in need of some extra cash. ie. University Students.
Are you guys confident we will have enough referees even with the new Metropolitan League possibly starting up?
how many middle aged uni students are there out there?
Power04 wrote:I think the Referee debate/discussion should be resarected, take us off talking about the SAASL and pherhaps even trying to help them with a few ideas.
Agree with most of the posts on here, the club ref will always be considered biased by the oppostition and especially after he makes a bad call.
This is for you "Talk is Cheap" (aka Bill).
Couple of suggestions to help improve the Club Ref initiative:
1) Clubs instead of providing a Club Ref for there Reserves, should provide for the alternate day reserves, ie Sat club to provide for Sun club & vice versa
This way the club volunteers can still help there clubs and watch there club games.
2) Proper Referee uniforms to be worn. (you'd be suprised how this changes the view of the Ref) Not these flouresenct jackets.
Any other suggestions?
You have obviously never been a ref or a volunteer just someone that comes up with dopey ideas. So to improve the initiative this is your best 2 suggestions.
Firstly the club ref is a clubperson before they are a ref so why would you go to another club on another day on the other side of town maybe to ref. If you were going to do it you may as well become a ref full stop.
Secondly we dont need to change the view of the ref so much but more so the way they are treated by players and supporters sometimes even their own.
But keep thinking of ideas you might land a good one sometime especially if you look at it from a refereeing point of view rather than a playing one
Lefty your a
I have done plenty of volunteering in my time, but don't seek recognition for it as I do it for the love of the game. I have a passed the Federation and the SAASL referees courses and refereed several games, when not doing other choirs.
You ask why would someone want to referee someone elses games, well if you've been involved in the referee project by the SAASL, then you'll understand there is a shortage in Ref's and each club is required to provide a club referee, it is in our interest to protect them and make sure they come across as unbiased as possible. If it means providing for another day, then why not try it. It wouldn't be my first preference to give up 1 sunday every few weeks for it, but on the other side, someone else will be refereeing our home game, so I won't have to do it and can sit for a change and enjoy watching the game (but I'll probably end up running the line instead).
If you have some great ideas why not let us in on it.......
Talk Is Cheap wrote:There's no "Bill" in my name, I've been aka other names but not "Bill" !
The uniform is a good idea but as for doing other teams games let me quote someone who has a similar view to mine..
the gloves are off !! wrote:
I think you will find that club referees are loyal clubmen who will want to be where their team is, to assign them to other teams games will see less putting their hands up to do it.
Wherever they go they will make mistakes and be perceived as being biased.
At least their home club might offer them some sense of personal safety !
Why wouldn't you be safe refereeing an away game, what are you saying that there will be a difference between a normal SAASL/Fed referee and a club referee.
Surely anyone threatening the safety of a club referee will have the book thrown at them by the league.
Statto11 wrote: But my main point was why would you want to go and ref at another teams games, when you dont follow them and dont have any affinity with the club?
Thats exactly the point
Also you'd get paid for it.
Your point before about why would the club want to spend money on a referee uniform for there club ref, what about there personal safety?
Statto11 wrote: But my main point was why would you want to go and ref at another teams games, when you dont follow them and dont have any affinity with the club?
Thats exactly the point
Also you'd get paid for it.
Your point before about why would the club want to spend money on a referee uniform for there club ref, what about there personal safety?
So by that theory there shouldnt be a shortage of refs because people should be falling over one another wanting to go and ref at another teams game every weekend because they are going to get paid for it! I really dont think the $25 the league were paying for a person to ref a reserve game this season is motivation enough to get people interested in reffing another teams games.
And i still fail to see how wearing a proper refs uniform is going to make any difference to the amount of abuse a person will get during a game and better protect the persons safety. And your sort of insinuating that there are instances of refs getting attacked each week because of dodgy decisions which just doesnt happen.
I witnessed for myself an incident where 4 players and a club supporter had swarmed around a
club ref after the game. This was a reserves game for the record & the offenders happened to be from a club that won the league this season.
Verbal threats toward the ref ( who did a great job ) soon turned into a push shove, the rest follows.......
It all couldve turned into an ugly scene before the scuffle was broken up.
I happen to know that ref pretty well and i wouldve backed him with his martial arts background to kick all their butts.
I think that what Power04 is trying to make reference to here is that most of us that club ref need to be protected from
after match banter & thuggery. These incidents are remote however they do happen more frequently than you think.
We are only human & had an incident like this taken place with someone perhaps less disciplined then we leave ourselves opened to anything.
So lets get proactive and find solutions. Uniform seems to have an authoritive influence toward the referees role as a game official.
I witnessed for myself an incident where 4 players and a club supporter had swarmed around a
club ref after the game. This was a reserves game for the record & the offenders happened to be from a club that won the league this season.
Verbal threats toward the ref ( who did a great job ) soon turned into a push shove, the rest follows.......
It all couldve turned into an ugly scene before the scuffle was broken up.
I happen to know that ref pretty well and i wouldve backed him with his martial arts background to kick all their butts.
I think that what Power04 is trying to make reference to here is that most of us that club ref need to be protected from
after match banter & thuggery. These incidents are remote however they do happen more frequently than you think.
We are only human & had an incident like this taken place with someone perhaps less disciplined then we leave ourselves opened to anything.
So lets get proactive and find solutions. Uniform seems to have an authoritive influence toward the referees role as a game official.
I agree that these situations do arise during a season, im not saying that they dont. What i am saying is that they dont happen every weekend. I have seen instances myself of refs being unfairly abused and threatened and needing to be escorted for their safety from games so dont think that i am saying that it doesnt happen.
It should be the responsibility of EVERY player & spectator to protect anyone officiating a game, be they a linesman or ref, no matter how badly they might have performed during the game.
Yes a uniform does tend to get a bit more respect, but i feel that the flouro bibs have given the reserve refs that bit more respect this season. When you turn up for a game now you know that the person in the middle with the whistle has had to do some sort of training for that bib and isnt just anyone who was around at the time and got roped into reffing the game.
I just dont think that providing the reserve refs with a proper refs uniform is going to change the perception that they will be any less biased. Players are still going to know that they arent "official" refs and are still provided by the home side. What needs to be addressed is the way players react to decisions going against their team. And that responsibility comes back on the club and its coaches and committee members.
Power04 wrote:I think the Referee debate/discussion should be resarected, take us off talking about the SAASL and pherhaps even trying to help them with a few ideas.
Agree with most of the posts on here, the club ref will always be considered biased by the oppostition and especially after he makes a bad call.
This is for you "Talk is Cheap" (aka Bill).
Couple of suggestions to help improve the Club Ref initiative:
1) Clubs instead of providing a Club Ref for there Reserves, should provide for the alternate day reserves, ie Sat club to provide for Sun club & vice versa
This way the club volunteers can still help there clubs and watch there club games.
2) Proper Referee uniforms to be worn. (you'd be suprised how this changes the view of the Ref) Not these flouresenct jackets.
Any other suggestions?
You have obviously never been a ref or a volunteer just someone that comes up with dopey ideas. So to improve the initiative this is your best 2 suggestions.
Firstly the club ref is a clubperson before they are a ref so why would you go to another club on another day on the other side of town maybe to ref. If you were going to do it you may as well become a ref full stop.
Secondly we dont need to change the view of the ref so much but more so the way they are treated by players and supporters sometimes even their own.
But keep thinking of ideas you might land a good one sometime especially if you look at it from a refereeing point of view rather than a playing one
Lefty your a
I have done plenty of volunteering in my time, but don't seek recognition for it as I do it for the love of the game. I have a passed the Federation and the SAASL referees courses and refereed several games, when not doing other choirs.
You ask why would someone want to referee someone elses games, well if you've been involved in the referee project by the SAASL, then you'll understand there is a shortage in Ref's and each club is required to provide a club referee, it is in our interest to protect them and make sure they come across as unbiased as possible. If it means providing for another day, then why not try it. It wouldn't be my first preference to give up 1 sunday every few weeks for it, but on the other side, someone else will be refereeing our home game, so I won't have to do it and can sit for a change and enjoy watching the game (but I'll probably end up running the line instead).
If you have some great ideas why not let us in on it.......
Well done to you Power 04. Theres some recognition for you
I have been involved in the ref project I am a club ref amongst other things.
Ill give you some suggestions like 1. SAASL should seek sponsorship from guide dogs to give refs assistance in making decisions 2. Provide grass skates to keep up with play 3. Home team to provide trainer for oxygen & beverages during game. How do think these will go or did you already think of them
I witnessed for myself an incident where 4 players and a club supporter had swarmed around a
club ref after the game. This was a reserves game for the record & the offenders happened to be from a club that won the league this season.
Verbal threats toward the ref ( who did a great job ) soon turned into a push shove, the rest follows.......
It all couldve turned into an ugly scene before the scuffle was broken up.
I happen to know that ref pretty well and i wouldve backed him with his martial arts background to kick all their butts.
I think that what Power04 is trying to make reference to here is that most of us that club ref need to be protected from
after match banter & thuggery. These incidents are remote however they do happen more frequently than you think.
We are only human & had an incident like this taken place with someone perhaps less disciplined then we leave ourselves opened to anything.
So lets get proactive and find solutions. Uniform seems to have an authoritive influence toward the referees role as a game official.
It's up to clubs to police the behaviour of there officials & supporters & not tolarate any physical or in your face verbal abuse to the referee's, it should be quick, harsh, & consistant, & I guarranty it will stop & if the clubs dont then the league must !!
The problem clubs tolarate the abuse & it escalates quickly till it becomes out of control then we lose them.
you might land a good one sometime especially if you look at it from a refereeing point of view rather than a playing one 
Your idea has merit, set the precedent.
