New Junior Structure 2014

[Coach_Mulatinho]

why would juniors start preseon in November? January is enough. why complaining about only to worry about development? kids jump club to club anyway. coaches move from clubs taking their 'own' players anyway.

[manu09]

Or kids just playing because they love playing for their club and with their mates ?

Even if a kid loves playing for a club and with their mates it doesn't mean anything.
There's a certain young boy that had been at a club for 4 years and was aiming to play for the seniors one day who was deemed surplus (unfairly in some opinions, & the real reason not given to players that stayed) to a technically gifted team.

Unfortunately club hopping will always occur, some will leave of their own volition others will be pushed. As long as each player is awarded a fair opportunity to play at a level that best suits them and challenges them.

If clubs could be persuaded to commit to the long term development of their existing juniors, their senior teams would eventually be stronger. This would ensure that every league would be a closer contest with a relegation one year not seen as a detriment as the lower league could still be relatively strong.

[charlieadelaide]

Why not have two divisions in the premier league and state league.......

Premier league

All premier teams currently in A division go into top division along with top half of Bs, all C division state teams and bottom of Bs (state teams) go into second division.

In the UK all teams play each other twice, if there are more teams then sometimes you will only play one team once. luck of the draw

Personally think it is a good idea, will take a lot of movement over the first two years to get right, a lot of teams will struggle, but it will stop the likes of some coaches dragging players from one side to form another, like White City 15s, who were in the C division, took all of Toros good A players, then demanded to go up to Bs (and got his wish) how many clubs have missed out on promotion because of lack of teams in another division!!!
players leave teams every year to play in better, this wont stop this at first but it should settle down, the likes of Toros who at the moment don't have a very strong junior set up, may wish to have a team in JSL with an option to move to premier league later, other teams should be given this option, that way some clubs could have two teams, one in each division, with second team not being allowed to be promoted.

[The moyesiah]

Why not have two divisions in the premier league and state league.......

Premier league

All premier teams currently in A division go into top division along with top half of Bs, all C division state teams and bottom of Bs (state teams) go into second division.

In the UK all teams play each other twice, if there are more teams then sometimes you will only play one team once. luck of the draw

Personally think it is a good idea, will take a lot of movement over the first two years to get right, a lot of teams will struggle, but it will stop the likes of some coaches dragging players from one side to form another, like White City 15s, who were in the C division, took all of Toros good A players, then demanded to go up to Bs (and got his wish) how many clubs have missed out on promotion because of lack of teams in another division!!!
players leave teams every year to play in better, this wont stop this at first but it should settle down, the likes of Toros who at the moment don't have a very strong junior set up, may wish to have a team in JSL with an option to move to premier league later, other teams should be given this option, that way some clubs could have two teams, one in each division, with second team not being allowed to be promoted.

They did finish second in the Cs which I believe is a promotion and actually only 3 regular players came from that A side, others were JSL players and one went to skillaroos, to get the facts right those boys made the decision to go not the coach.

[The moyesiah]

another thing that could be done is at the half way point in both leagues they simply change the fixtures. For example after 13 rounds in the PL and 15 rounds in the SL, they change fixtures accordingly, the bottom half will only play each other and the top half do the same. This would at least prevent year long beltings, sure some teams will play each other 3 times possibly but who cares right, its about development and not points so why have points other than to arrange fixtures at halfway.

[Željko Jurin]

Can someone please explain to me why they think there will be more year long beltings, that doesn't already currently happen in all age groups, and in all divisions currently A,B or C ?

I repeat, 8 out of 80 State League teams are effected, of which most of those 8 are in the bottom half of their divisions

[The moyesiah]

Can someone please explain to me why they think there will be more year long beltings, that doesn't already currently happen in all age groups, and in all divisions currently A,B or C ?

I repeat, 8 out of 80 State League teams are effected, of which most of those 8 are in the bottom half of their divisions

Heres some examples ZJ

14 12 0 2 50 15 35 38
vs
17 0 16 1 14 130 -116 1

The first team would be in As next year, however now they are playing the likes of the shown team in 2014 so their goal avg will go from 130 against to 200 because now they play possibly 7 teams that would spank their C league leaders, let alone the bottom half.

14 9 4 1 34 18 16 28
vs
15 0 14 1 23 79 -56 1

The first team are a competitive A team sitting 4th with 2 games in hand to 2nd so top 2 possibly, however now they are playing the likes of the shown team in 2014

This is not wide spread but it is there, it will also mean player movements that will hurt SL juniors, simple.

Another example Bs 2nd team got promotion in As 2012, they played the Cs champions who got promotion into the Bs 2012, the new A beat the new B team 15-1, now this same team would be dropped into SL, what are they going to do weekly vs the bottom half of this ladder if they spank the champions 15-1.

Let's use an U15A team, now they are told sorry boys we are going back to the lower league. Now down the road you have WC - PL / Croy - PL / Strikers - PL and possibly the Pirates if they gain promotion, you can guarantee the better players will move for SENIOR PL options if they are U14 and up.

Sure this will not happen in every single case but the majority of talent that keeps these teams in the good leagues and are possibly future players to get the SL team into the PL won't be there. In saying that if they stayed and started playing 18s and were talent they would be scalped anyway by these same clubs which is the process of our game.

I like the idea and it is good for the game, but there has to be a little more thought about it other than bang done.

[Željko Jurin]

This is not wide spread .....

[The moyesiah]

This is not wide spread .....

I guarantee if you had access to every single junior player movement from 2010-2013, 80% would be to PL clubs, this will make it even more, slowly forcing SL clubs to offer a great service they possibly just can't afford, therefore slowly fade out.

[Željko Jurin]

This is not wide spread .....

I guarantee if you had access to every single junior player movement from 2010-2013, 80% would be to PL clubs, this will make it even more, slowly forcing SL clubs to offer a great service they possibly just can't afford, therefore slowly fade out.

What happens if they're not good enough for PL clubs ?

[2002]

The new Stucture will be fantastic for Junior developmnet, It will enable Coaches to try playing out from the back, possesion based football, and not win at all cost with fear of relagation. Kids will be tested trying to expermeinet with football momenst, allowed to take huge rik without fear, rather than trying to get a result at the expense of developmnet.

The coaches now have no excuse but to develop players, and it is squarely on the shoulders of coaches to ask thier players to play with the ball, take risks, make the game attractive and not worry about the score.

I hope the Coaches of the 16 teams in each ager group take this on board, I hope FFSA provide a white paper to clubs to tell them why they are doing this and what coaches should be doing and I hope as coaches we can eduacate our parents into appreciateing the fine things, rather than just winning the game.

We will never be able to keep 100% opf people happy, so why try, just get the kids playing nice football on the ball and we will win in the end.

[Con M]

There seems to be a lot of issues and angles to consider, with fors and againsts in this proposal. Hope it's real consultation with all stake-holders, not just token or pretend consultation.

A few things that stand out with a longer junior season are volunteers' availability, ground availability and catch-up of cancelled matches (heat policy early on, then those washed out later in mid-season).

Also, would junior fees go up because of a longer season and would parents/guardians wear that?

I was hoping to at least see a junior fees freeze for 2014 as a goodwill gesture by clubs who do cater for their local community, some getting partly-funded by either Federal, State or Council money.

One of the FFA/FFSA's other policies in the Seniors area that could impact on junior fees is the PPS total squad Player Points System, where one aim of that policy is to quote: "curb excessive payments". If that PPS policy works it might start to take effect and take pressure off junior fees increases.

[redfred]

Not a bad idea, but surely it must be phased in over 1-2 years.

[matty2323]

I hear a lot of people talking about "for junior development to succeed, we need to get rid of points/ladders/relegation/promotion etc"... has this been scientifically tested to improve development? As a coach, I'm a huge advocate of needing to play in the best divisions to test yourself against the best opposition. Yes, coaching matters and normally good coaches are attract good players, who are easier to coach, more willing to learn and normally lead to the team being successful in terms of results.

Not once in the FFSA document does it state that they're trying to eradicate "win at all cost mentalities". They're trying to eradicate player movement, and as they state "implement junior structures that ensured that the best junior players were competing against the best junior players."... So what this is basically stating is that the best juniors should head to the PL clubs as they will get the chance to compete against the best juniors of their age. Therefore, kids will leave SL clubs to seek PL clubs. Player movement will stay the same as higher quality kids from SL clubs will replace the weaker players from PL clubs. It is basically stating that as a SL club, we cant produce the best juniors.

As for "results dont matter" etc, they do. They matter to the kids. Positive results increase confidence, and with confidence, kids express themselves more on the football pitch. It also reinforces what you're trying to teach them, because they're being rewarded with wins. Having said that, the 2 games my lads learned the most from this season where defeats. Both defeats emphasized what i was talking about, and as a group we learn from them and develop. It's easy to say they dont when you're sitting top and haven't lost a game all season...ultimately, If you want to fix what is wrong with the "win at all costs" mentality of some coaches, then employ better coaches. Its not the league structure, its the individual.

And as for "kids wont leave a club etc etc"... how do you know? Its easy to sit on a perch at a club like Raiders with a relatively strong safety net that the seniors wont be relegated. But until you're put in a position where your club was relegated and your kids dropped to the SL, you cant make assumptions.

[matty2323]

Taking out Eastern United (who are bottom) and Western Toros who left the North League how many games did you win by over 10?

Like the team you played last week, we also had a similar experience with tackles from behind.

This interests me. Ive openly put my hand up and acknowledged the fact we were slow and mistimed challenges vs Raiders. Contrary to what AD believes, there was no malicious intent and we we're just not up to the intensity of Raiders. But who else? The only other game through the entire season that had a mistimed challenge in it was vs Para Hills, and they were awarded a penalty. Having said that, the Para Hills coach that game was too busy yelling abuse at the ref to watch the actual the game. So please tell?

[ikon]

The new Stucture will be fantastic for Junior developmnet, It will enable Coaches to try playing out from the back, possesion based football, and not win at all cost with fear of relagation. Kids will be tested trying to expermeinet with football momenst, allowed to take huge rik without fear, rather than trying to get a result at the expense of developmnet.

The coaches now have no excuse but to develop players, and it is squarely on the shoulders of coaches to ask thier players to play with the ball, take risks, make the game attractive and not worry about the score.

I hope the Coaches of the 16 teams in each ager group take this on board, I hope FFSA provide a white paper to clubs to tell them why they are doing this and what coaches should be doing and I hope as coaches we can eduacate our parents into appreciateing the fine things, rather than just winning the game.

We will never be able to keep 100% opf people happy, so why try, just get the kids playing nice football on the ball and we will win in the end.

+1

[Željko Jurin]

Not a bad idea, but surely it must be phased in over 1-2 years.

How ?

[redfred]

Tell the clubs at the end of the 2013 season that it will be implemented at the start of 2015.

[matty2323]

hopefully someone can answer this, but is there "contracts" for junior players? I would hate to see something like this implemented, and then talented kids locked into contracts by clubs that fear losing them, and then they can't leave if they wish to.

[themessenger]

hopefully someone can answer this, but is there "contracts" for junior players? I would hate to see something like this implemented, and then talented kids locked into contracts by clubs that fear losing them, and then they can't leave if they wish to.

There are no contracts for junior players, they are registered on the same amateur contracts that senior players are signed on, even the First Team players who get paid are registered as amateurs.

The only players who are tied to a club are those aged over 18 years who sign a PROFESSIONAL contract with a club. That contract is then registered with the FFA.

[matty2323]

hopefully someone can answer this, but is there "contracts" for junior players? I would hate to see something like this implemented, and then talented kids locked into contracts by clubs that fear losing them, and then they can't leave if they wish to.

There are no contracts for junior players, they are registered on the same amateur contracts that senior players are signed on, even the First Team players who get paid are registered as amateurs.

The only players who are tied to a club are those aged over 18 years who sign a PROFESSIONAL contract with a club. That contract is then registered with the FFA.

ok so there is no youth contracts like over seas? clubs therefore cant seek compensation for developing youngsters and then seeing them move on... How does that work when AU signs a player? There has to be balance, cause i think this sort of structure will promote "poaching" in combination with the point system being introduced.

[themessenger]

hopefully someone can answer this, but is there "contracts" for junior players? I would hate to see something like this implemented, and then talented kids locked into contracts by clubs that fear losing them, and then they can't leave if they wish to.

There are no contracts for junior players, they are registered on the same amateur contracts that senior players are signed on, even the First Team players who get paid are registered as amateurs.

The only players who are tied to a club are those aged over 18 years who sign a PROFESSIONAL contract with a club. That contract is then registered with the FFA.

ok so there is no youth contracts like over seas? clubs therefore cant seek compensation for developing youngsters and then seeing them move on... How does that work when AU signs a player? There has to be balance, cause i think this sort of structure will promote "poaching" in combination with the point system being introduced.

When a player signs his first professional contract with a club - it could be Adelaide City,it could be Adelaide United, it could be an overseas club - then 'training compensation' is payable to all clubs that contributed to that player's development, from the age of 12 upwards.

[Temperance]

There is no doubt that the proposed changes will benefit the Premier league clubs and I will give you an example.
I wish to give no offense but it is there in black and white for all to see

Under 13 JPL A division

Metro Stars played 18 and have lost all 18 games with a minus 72 goal difference
By rights the team should drop down to the "B" division to develop, but instead of that, the proposed changes are implemented and kids/parents who would be playing for teams like Salisbury United will potentially drive 15/20 minutes further and play for Metros instead, for the simple fact that they want to play in the "A" division against tougher opposition. I ask you how fair is that? How can State league clubs compete with that?
State league clubs cannot gain promotion without having a strong development focussed juniors set up and over time those juniors become strong seniors, but how can you have a strong development focussed junior set up without having strong junior players (because they never play for your State league club in the first place because they opted to drive 15/20 minutes further to the already entrenched Premier leauge club like Metros)
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

[The moyesiah]

There is no doubt that the proposed changes will benefit the Premier league clubs and I will give you an example.
I wish to give no offense but it is there in black and white for all to see

Under 13 JPL A division

Metro Stars played 18 and have lost all 18 games with a minus 72 goal difference
By rights the team should drop down to the "B" division to develop, but instead of that, the proposed changes are implemented and kids/parents who would be playing for teams like Salisbury United will potentially drive 15/20 minutes further and play for Metros instead, for the simple fact that they want to play in the "A" division against tougher opposition. I ask you how fair is that? How can State league clubs compete with that?
State league clubs cannot gain promotion without having a strong development focussed juniors set up and over time those juniors become strong seniors, but how can you have a strong development focussed junior set up without having strong junior players (because they never play for your State league club in the first place because they opted to drive 15/20 minutes further to the already entrenched Premier leauge club like Metros)
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Gain promotion
Is that what West Adelaide did?
The answer many will say is this, sell your club so that players and parents won't want to go.

[Željko Jurin]

There is no doubt that the proposed changes will benefit the Premier league clubs and I will give you an example.
I wish to give no offense but it is there in black and white for all to see

Under 13 JPL A division

Metro Stars played 18 and have lost all 18 games with a minus 72 goal difference
By rights the team should drop down to the "B" division to develop, but instead of that, the proposed changes are implemented and kids/parents who would be playing for teams like Salisbury United will potentially drive 15/20 minutes further and play for Metros instead, for the simple fact that they want to play in the "A" division against tougher opposition. I ask you how fair is that? How can State league clubs compete with that?
State league clubs cannot gain promotion without having a strong development focussed juniors set up and over time those juniors become strong seniors, but how can you have a strong development focussed junior set up without having strong junior players (because they never play for your State league club in the first place because they opted to drive 15/20 minutes further to the already entrenched Premier leauge club like Metros)
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Sorry, but I can not see Salisbury parents driving their kids to join Metro .... totally different demographics

Just like South Adelaide parents will not go to join White City

Ask most kids, and they'll say they want to keep playing with their mates

Yes, like the example above, there are a few clubs and a couple of age groups that will be advantaged ..... But MAJORITY, and a big majority, will all be the same as is, minus the promotion and relegation

[Stitch This]

Sorry, but I can not see Salisbury parents driving their kids to join Metro .... totally different demographics

Just like South Adelaide parents will not go to join White City

Ask most kids, and they'll say they want to keep playing with their mates

Yes, like the example above, there are a few clubs and a couple of age groups that will be advantaged ..... But MAJORITY, and a big majority, will all be the same as is, minus the promotion and relegation

Simples

[Sven]

Kids want to play football with their mates and have fun. Its the parents, coaches & club administrators that care about tables, win-loss-draw and promotion-relegation. Lets just let the kids play football in a positive and supportive learning environment.

[paul merson]

There is no doubt that the proposed changes will benefit the Premier league clubs and I will give you an example.
I wish to give no offense but it is there in black and white for all to see

Under 13 JPL A division

Metro Stars played 18 and have lost all 18 games with a minus 72 goal difference
By rights the team should drop down to the "B" division to develop, but instead of that, the proposed changes are implemented and kids/parents who would be playing for teams like Salisbury United will potentially drive 15/20 minutes further and play for Metros instead, for the simple fact that they want to play in the "A" division against tougher opposition. I ask you how fair is that? How can State league clubs compete with that?
State league clubs cannot gain promotion without having a strong development focussed juniors set up and over time those juniors become strong seniors, but how can you have a strong development focussed junior set up without having strong junior players (because they never play for your State league club in the first place because they opted to drive 15/20 minutes further to the already entrenched Premier leauge club like Metros)
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Sorry, but I can not see Salisbury parents driving their kids to join Metro .... totally different demographics
Just like South Adelaide parents will not go to join White City

Ask most kids, and they'll say they want to keep playing with their mates

Yes, like the example above, there are a few clubs and a couple of age groups that will be advantaged ..... But MAJORITY, and a big majority, will all be the same as is, minus the promotion and relegation

My parents drove me from Craigmore to Firle (ED Azzurri) for 4 or so years to train & play.

[de niro]

Tell the clubs at the end of the 2013 season that it will be implemented at the start of 2015.

Why? What difference is 12 months going to make?

[Željko Jurin]

There is no doubt that the proposed changes will benefit the Premier league clubs and I will give you an example.
I wish to give no offense but it is there in black and white for all to see

Under 13 JPL A division

Metro Stars played 18 and have lost all 18 games with a minus 72 goal difference
By rights the team should drop down to the "B" division to develop, but instead of that, the proposed changes are implemented and kids/parents who would be playing for teams like Salisbury United will potentially drive 15/20 minutes further and play for Metros instead, for the simple fact that they want to play in the "A" division against tougher opposition. I ask you how fair is that? How can State league clubs compete with that?
State league clubs cannot gain promotion without having a strong development focussed juniors set up and over time those juniors become strong seniors, but how can you have a strong development focussed junior set up without having strong junior players (because they never play for your State league club in the first place because they opted to drive 15/20 minutes further to the already entrenched Premier leauge club like Metros)
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Sorry, but I can not see Salisbury parents driving their kids to join Metro .... totally different demographics
Just like South Adelaide parents will not go to join White City

Ask most kids, and they'll say they want to keep playing with their mates

Yes, like the example above, there are a few clubs and a couple of age groups that will be advantaged ..... But MAJORITY, and a big majority, will all be the same as is, minus the promotion and relegation

My parents drove me from Craigmore to Firle (ED Azzurri) for 4 or so years to train & play.

Why ?