New Junior Structure 2014

[matty2323]

please, tell me, what is the point of us remaining in the federation?...

To try get promoted isnt it ? And if we get relegated ....

then ....... BINGO !

Yes! but this takes that away from us. We dont have the finances to compete with other clubs player payments. I took a 50% pay cut from Raiders to playford, and if you knew my Raiders wage, you'd know thats not much at all. Now we're being forced to give up our best juniors for the parents/players ambition to play in the top league. We cant produce, We cant buy and We cant compete with the wages of other PL clubs.. we're stuck in the wilderness, alongside clubs like Gawler.

[matty2323]

Matty 2323

I understand what you are saying, especially about kids playing at their optimum level.

However unfortunately senior teams are not able to attract decent crowds no matter how good their team is or what league they are in.

Why is it that many people don’t go to watch? I believe it is because there is far too much club hopping done by players, senior and junior, and the clubs are not building a club culture.

As bad as it seems in the short term to be in the State League for juniors to start with, and the fact that you will lose some players, after a year or two it will all settle down and the kids that come to your club will probably stay for a long time and become club people.

Club people will always follow one club, through thick and thin, and when you eventually gain promotion you will be a club that will be sustainable and not a club that only survives because of large benefactors and false loyalty.

PS, that tackle your centre back did on my son last week was shocking, that kid needs a lot of developing.

shocking tackle, your boy said he was ok and the end of the game thank fully. It wasn't malicious, it was late. and this is key to what im trying to say. The lad who made the challenge is used to loping around and dominating. All of a sudden he's come up against excellent talent who are quick, agile and skillful. He hangs a leg and cleans the player up. Why? because he's not used to playing at that speed, that intensity and making decisions that quickly. Take that chance for him to develop and get used to playing teams like Raiders every week, and he's going to remain like that.

Maybe it would be better for him to play with slower players in a lower division and then progress to play against quicker players when he has learned how to time tackles properly?

ahh yes, because even the best defenders in the world dont mis-time challenges! here.. play against the slowest player and learn how to tackle... now here, tackle messi. He knows how to tackle, he proves that week in week out, he was just caught out by a quicker player who showed a good turn of speed... something he isn't used to. Once kids know the basics, the only way to get better at them is to do them in higher intensity environments.. like games against good sides.

[matty2323]

Did raiders seniors get any players/coaches fron a certain northern state league club also??

only about 10 of us! lol.

Chevap rolls and lamb/pig on the spit vs meat pies .... you guys arent dumb

my misses is still annoyed at me for leaving, she misses the cabbage!!! haha.

[Željko Jurin]

only about 10 of us! lol.

Chevap rolls and lamb/pig on the spit vs meat pies .... you guys arent dumb

my misses is still annoyed at me for leaving, she misses the cabbage!!! haha.

You serious ??? Must be the garlic breath burps on Sat nights

[johnydep]

Kids should not play for points if we are really serious about developing!
These debates about structures, A's & B's and club hopping really astound me

+1

[fossil]

lets be honest here... does club hopping at junior levels really matter?

So whats our discussion been about for the last 4 hours then ??

i dont see this as club hoping. i see this as giving an unfair advantage to PL clubs. Kids currently club hop to play in the top level, but at the moment, any club and any age group has the chance to play in the top level. Now that is totally reliant of the outcome of the senior set up. Im a Playford boy for life, i love the club, and i plan on coaching for the next 40 years of my life... this sort of structure being implemented puts the future of my club at risk. Playford cant afford to compete financially at senior level, now we wont be able to attract quality coaches or players at junior level.. please, tell me, what is the point of us remaining in the federation?...

time for all SL clubs too ask the questions to players / parents in an informal system and see who may want to stay or go if they can't play against higher divisions of the "elite" of PL and check a ladder and it shows sides in PL getting pumped by 20 goals a game and they are winning by 20 in lower levels.

the FFSA must be blind with this, you only need to stop all the best moving every year to a minority, ask why the AFL have elite big name players in poor market areas! the game must be bigger than the clubs and having a bigger game = more participants the FFSA is doing the opposite.
while other codes are looking to attract at grass roots, rule changes on bumps making the game safer on and off field and greater chances to play against the best and add country footballers get paid very well to attract the best.

[robinfriday10]

[quote="Željko Jurin"]
Players yes

Coach just returned as he was with us previously

and he left previously because???

and coaches x2

[west adelaide]

If we at West didn't gain promotion (still not 100% yet) this year our Junior set up would be decimated beyond recognition.

Why ??

Only your 15s and 16s are in the A's, and the better ones would go up to u18s wouldnt they ??

No change to your 12s, 13s and 14s

Our 13 & 14 are all but promoted and 12's are in the mix big time but it's all irrevelant now.
This system is a DISASTER for the State League clubs, I'm just glad we are going up.

[Željko Jurin]

Yes, but 13s and 14s are currently 'B' ... why would they leave if your seniors aren't promoted ?
They didn't leave at the start of the year

[matty2323]

Yes, but 13s and 14s are currently 'B' ... why would they leave if your seniors aren't promoted ?
They didn't leave at the start of the year

good teams knowing that if they stuck it out for a year they'd get promoted?

[Omonia40]

edited

[Željko Jurin]

Yes, but 13s and 14s are currently 'B' ... why would they leave if your seniors aren't promoted ?
They didn't leave at the start of the year

good teams knowing that if they stuck it out for a year they'd get promoted?

Or kids just playing because they love playing for their club and with their mates ?

[matty2323]

Yes, but 13s and 14s are currently 'B' ... why would they leave if your seniors aren't promoted ?
They didn't leave at the start of the year

good teams knowing that if they stuck it out for a year they'd get promoted?

Or kids just playing because they love playing for their club and with their mates ?

bit of both id say. but shouldn't they deserve both if they earned? Considering my teams current standing, we were in a position to get placed in the u13A's. Over the past few weeks, Ive had numerous phone calls inquiring to the availability of positions in our squad for next season (from both E&D sides and other federation teams from within and outside our zone). Kids perceive playing in the A division as their biggest chance to succeed, and my bet is statistically they're probably right. We aren't Europe or South America, we don't have fanatical support were kids grow up dreaming to play Raiders first team. We're the stepping stones to the A-League, and if club hoping to ensure A division football gets it done, then kids will. To then dictate who can be in these A divisions based on senior performance and not junior performance is degrading to SL clubs, and will create an even bigger chasm between the big and small clubs.

[Facts and Stats]

I am not speaking of someone on any advisory group or involved in any club when I say this. They are my views and my views alone.

Has the Junior Advisory group been involved in this paper, if not, why not. If so, have they discussed it outside their group? If so can they be transparent and publish their findings?

As it says it's a discussion paper, I assume it will be discussed and voted on, I assume all state league clubs will vote against it, and they have a majority, so it will not be accepted......

If the above doesn't happen and it goes ahead, it's not a disscussion paper, and it shouldn't have been called one.

If the advisory group haven't had any input and consulted like they should, what's the point in the group? Are they meeting the points outlined by the FFSA in their rules?

Lots of questions, who has the answers?

[The Kings Jesta]

I think the point ZJ is trying to make is being missed: "if you build it they will come" to coin a phrase.
If you create an environment that players and (unfortunately) parents want to be around they will stay around.
Before it was easy, stay in Div A and you'll keep your players, maybe even get some better ones handed to you. Now, clubs will have to actually go in to the community and come up with a strategy to attract players. Maybe even encourage the juniors to go and support the seniors as their futures are aligned. More numbers through the gates on a match day (bar / food) more money for the club to reinvest in promoting the juniors and building a complete environment.
Develop these players and then they will become the 1st team you need to achieve PL.
If you have a team full of players that would leave just for a division... are they really the type you want around anyway.
The first 2 years of this new system will show true club commitment for the State League clubs.Once the dust has settled (as said before) it will be as though it had always been this way.

With regards to players leaving to chase the top division, as previously stated most current PL 1st teams have majority of their juniors already playing JPL A in most age groups, so where are the best of the State League juniors actually going to go?
Most teams would take on 15 players a year (per team), if the club is really about development, they wouldn't take on any more players unless one of their players chose to leave. Even if they did say "well these 10 from Playford are better than what we have..." there will now be 10 players from PL club X looking for a club... maybe they'll go to Playford which would mean you'd still have a high quality of player to work with.

Another solution to the "we're winning every game 15-20 - nil..." play those players an age or 2 up. They may struggle for the first year, but now with no relegation, you can keep them in the same team the following year to keep developing and either move them up or play another year in the same age group to see if they have developed.

[angk43]

That's enormous pressure for the senior coach, imagine being responsible for relegating a whole club. The exodus of juniors to other clubs would be a like bank run in Greece.
Could you imaging doing the double in the U13's (cup and title) and then been relegated, Or playing C division one year then because your seniors were promoted you moved up into the premier division and your parent/coach doesn't make changes due to loyalty = "carnage" for 30 games.

Could a very interesting 1st year for clubs.

[Željko Jurin]

As it says it's a discussion paper, I assume it will be discussed and voted on, I assume all state league clubs will vote against it, and they have a majority, so it will not be accepted......

Why would 16 State League clubs x 5 age groups = 90 juniors teams, of which only 8 currently play in A divisions, vote against it ?

[Facts and Stats]

Because it becomes automatically harder to attract players if you haven't got a hope of being promoted.

Most of the 16 teams know they won't go up, so their juniors will stay in a lower division.

You will be losing a lot of players to a FFSA state team won't you next season? would you be able to attract good replacements if Raiders were in State league?

[The Kings Jesta]

Because it becomes automatically harder to attract players if you haven't got a hope of being promoted.

Most of the 16 teams know they won't go up, so their juniors will stay in a lower division.

You will be losing a lot of players to a FFSA state team won't you next season? would you be able to attract good replacements if Raiders were in State league?

If you've done the right things from SSG up, then majority, if not all, will stay. The ones who leave probably aren't the long term ones you want around... plus where are all the players meant to be going? Each team can only accommodate so many players

[Željko Jurin]

would you be able to attract good replacements if Raiders were in State league?

Do you have a crystal ball, or you just assuming ?

[Facts and Stats]

Because it becomes automatically harder to attract players if you haven't got a hope of being promoted.

Most of the 16 teams know they won't go up, so their juniors will stay in a lower division.

You will be losing a lot of players to a FFSA state team won't you next season? would you be able to attract good replacements if Raiders were in State league?

If you've done the right things from SSG up, then majority, if not all, will stay. The ones who leave probably aren't the long term ones you want around... plus where are all the players meant to be going? Each team can only accommodate so many players

I am not heavily involved in juniors, so won't get into the ins and outs - as i may talk rubbish - but I would think the top clubs will get stronger purely due to the level of the senior teams.

[Facts and Stats]

would you be able to attract good replacements if Raiders were in State league?

Do you have a crystal ball, or you just assuming ?

I don't know, that's why I asked the question,no assumption or prediction

[matty2323]

i understand ZJ's side of the story, and its great in theory, but in the real world, its not how it works. Kids want to play A division, or if they are in the B division, be rewarded with promotion. Kids leave if they aren't in the A division, or working within a team that will be promoted. So now you have all the talent filtering towards PL clubs. Instead of each side having an even balance of high to mid quality, you're now going to have teams full of quality. 1-15 will be high quality. The only teams that should have that luxury are Skilleroos. They get to pick the best of the best, not PL clubs.

If you're a parent, and you see your kid has talent, you're prepared to pay the $600+ for them to play federation football.. but in return you want good coaching and A division football. Take the chance away from them, they leave. Then the parents left over dont want to pay that kinda money to see there kids play State league, so they return to E&D for less then $100 a year. This is turning the State League Juniors into an extension of the E&D set up and another feeder step for PL clubs.

Even in theory it dosen't work. Its easy to sit back in the PL and say all this, but how many of the people on these forums are sitting there as SL clubs saying "this is great?". Even West Adelaide, who're getting promoted admit this is a horrible idea. Like ive stated, i see this as the same as saying.. "England, you've won qualification to the WC so now all your youth teams have too.. but now you've missed out on European Championships so now your youth cant play in it either...". All we're pretty much doing is saying your first team has to be good for you to be good as a junior...Its disrespectful to SL clubs.

[Željko Jurin]

Do the kids want to play A division, or the parents ?

Do the kids want promotion, or the parents ?

Kids leave if they're not in the A division, or their parents ?

[matty2323]

Do the kids want to play A division, or the parents ?

Do the kids want promotion, or the parents ?

Kids leave if they're not in the A division, or their parents ?

either way ZJ, as there legal guardian those parents get to make the decisions. They pay for things, and like a school, they want the best possible club/coaching/competition.

[The Kings Jesta]

i understand ZJ's side of the story, and its great in theory, but in the real world, its not how it works. Kids want to play A division, or if they are in the B division, be rewarded with promotion. Kids leave if they aren't in the A division, or working within a team that will be promoted. So now you have all the talent filtering towards PL clubs. Instead of each side having an even balance of high to mid quality, you're now going to have teams full of quality. 1-15 will be high quality. The only teams that should have that luxury are Skilleroos. They get to pick the best of the best, not PL clubs.
not sure the last time a team of 15 top quality players all played a season together and everyone (mainly the parents) stayed happy about the amount of game time they were or were not getting

If you're a parent, and you see your kid has talent, you're prepared to pay the $600+ for them to play federation football.. but in return you want good coaching and A division football. Take the chance away from them, they leave. Then the parents left over dont want to pay that kinda money to see there kids play State league, so they return to E&D for less then $100 a year. This is turning the State League Juniors into an extension of the E&D set up and another feeder step for PL clubs.
What about the clubs in the east/west/ south, thy're not going to head to the EDJSA. Not sure the last time a player went from amateurs (all affiliated EDJSA 1st teams are amatuer league SAASL affiliated) to the A-league. That's your selling point to all the juniors. They won't get picked up by professional clubs playing E&D.


Even in theory it dosen't work. Its easy to sit back in the PL and say all this, but how many of the people on these forums are sitting there as SL clubs saying "this is great?". Even West Adelaide, who're getting promoted admit this is a horrible idea. Like ive stated, i see this as the same as saying.. "England, you've won qualification to the WC so now all your youth teams have too.. but now you've missed out on European Championships so now your youth cant play in it either...". All we're pretty much doing is saying your first team has to be good for you to be good as a junior...Its disrespectful to SL clubs.

Not quite right as your argument is that with lower league football the good juniors will leave, where as nationality is nationality, even now guys like Victor Moses (England U/21) choose to play for Nigeria as better chance of playing. When these players get to 15-16 years old and they realise the bottle neck that is senior football, they'll need to find a game somewhere. Show them this path way early enough and you should be able to hold on to your "academy" graduates as they know 1st team football is achievable at your club.

[Željko Jurin]

Do the kids want to play A division, or the parents ?

Do the kids want promotion, or the parents ?

Kids leave if they're not in the A division, or their parents ?

either way ZJ, as there legal guardian those parents get to make the decisions. They pay for things, and like a school, they want the best possible club/coaching/competition.

So you agree ?

Kids just want to play, and if there's atleast points and a table, they're happy ? Agree ?

[Facts and Stats]

So ZJ why change the structure if its so simple

[Željko Jurin]

So ZJ why change the structure if its so simple

Because relegation and promotion is wrong at a young age ..... imo

[The Kings Jesta]

Do the kids want to play A division, or the parents ?

Do the kids want promotion, or the parents ?

Kids leave if they're not in the A division, or their parents ?

either way ZJ, as there legal guardian those parents get to make the decisions. They pay for things, and like a school, they want the best possible club/coaching/competition.

So you agree ?

Kids just want to play, and if there's atleast points and a table, they're happy ? Agree ?

Kind of like:
Would you be happier being bottom of the A div or top of B div?

pretty sure 2-3 years (13s-15s) of being bottom of Div A would see players wanting to move to a top Div B side, in turn creating spaces for top Div B players to join a Div A club.

There is a reason though that clubs like Aston Villa, Crewe, Southampton, West Ham, Ajax to name a few continue to produce great players, even when they are not the best in their league/continent (e.g. young lads going to Ajax could chose to head to EPL/La Liga/Serie A etc.). They have a proven set up and track record of producing players, achieved behind the scenes by people committed to making it happen (these academies were around before the last 20 years influx of money in to football.