New Junior Structure 2014

[Mrs Red]

Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come accross when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.

Now it will be harder to keep those good coaches who do develop our juniors as they will want to aspire to being part of the Premier League or play their teams in a better league so I think yes it does matter and it will affect State League clubs.

The better players will want to aspire to play in the Premier League clubs no different for the better coaches.

[Željko Jurin]

Here you go I did it for you

U13 - Salisbury United - nearly relegated anyway
U14 - Enfield 4th, Cove - relegated anyway
U15 - None
U16 - Playford, Comets - both nearly relegated anyway
U17 - Enfield, Salisbury United, Seaford

I don't see a lot of these players going else where, many had bad seasons anyway and are possibly already looking to leave to better teams so that argument is silly. All other club teams were in Bs or Cs so really this will not change for most club teams.

So 16 State League teams across 5 age groups = 80 possible State League sides in total
Currently, of these 80 only 8 State league sides are in 'A' divisions = 10%
...... so 90% of teams currently in all 'A' divisons are Premier League Clubs
(+2 sides that possibly could go up due to promotion)

matty, only effects 1 team at your club currently, and possibly your team you coach
And matty NO, relegation/promotion does NOT happen in junior football 'worldwide' .... in some places yes, in most places no

Mrs Red, I'm assuming you're at Modbury ??? .... how many junior teams will this effect at your club ?
None .... so why would parents/kids leave ?

This will help bond clubs, to make "juniors + seniors = Club" ..... not like currently at alot of clubs where both do their own things and wouldnt know who is who

I stand by my first statement .....

[Željko Jurin]

Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come accross when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.

Agree !!!

Our juniors were a shambles 6-7 years ago, all in the lowest divisions and getting thumped ..... I rekon we are doing ok at the moment

Get the right people in doing things for the right reasons (and not self interests), the right coaches, be as honest as possible, and you can only move forward, doesnt matter what division you are in

[johnydep]

Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come across when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.

+1

[robinfriday10]

Yes ZJ your club did struggle with juniors until your move north (inner), you have probably benefitted from the good work E&D have done over the years and yes i'm sure now your SSF programme will help your juniors to flourish also with the good coaches and facilities you have , good luck to you, your club deserves it. Lets have a look at another club that will benefit from a system that does not help out all clubs. White City under 13B's, Under 14C's, Under15B's, Under 16B's, Under 17A's - second bottom. How is it fair when we see those facts that people haven't shown, are there any other div 1 clubs with these facts also. Premier League clubs will now need to spend more money on their senior playing lists to make sure they stay in division 1 otherwise watch all your better juniors leave. Our game shouldn't be meddled with to appease the top league only.

[robinfriday10]

Div 1 (premier league) bound South Adelaide
- Under 13A
- Under 14B
- Under 15C
No Under 16
No Under 17

[Željko Jurin]

Yes ZJ your club did struggle with juniors until your move north (inner), you have probably benefitted from the good work E&D have done over the years and yes i'm sure now your SSF programme will help your juniors to flourish also with the good coaches and facilities you have , good luck to you, your club deserves it. Lets have a look at another club that will benefit from a system that does not help out all clubs. White City under 13B's, Under 14C's, Under15B's, Under 16B's, Under 17A's - second bottom. How is it fair when we see those facts that people haven't shown, are there any other div 1 clubs with these facts also. Premier League clubs will now need to spend more money on their senior playing lists to make sure they stay in division 1 otherwise watch all your better juniors leave. Our game shouldn't be meddled with to appease the top league only.

We moved out North and our juniors continued to go down, they started going good 7-8 years after our move .... where were the 'good work of E&D' for those 7-8 years ?
Where is all the 'good work that E&D' has done for all the other Northern clubs ??? Doesnt everyone say the Northern zone is the weakest ??

I repeat ...

Get the right people in doing things for the right reasons (and not self interests), the right coaches, be as honest as possible, and you can only move forward, doesnt matter what division you are in

Yes, you have given ONE example of a club in the Premier League that are struggling at junior level (out of 14), but they have also improved in the last 2 or so years, and will continue to

It doesnt happen over night, as we know

[Mrs Red]

matty, only effects 1 team at your club currently, and possibly your team you coach
And matty NO, relegation/promotion does NOT happen in junior football 'worldwide' .... in some places yes, in most places no

Mrs Red, I'm assuming you're at Modbury ??? .... how many junior teams will this effect at your club ?
None .... so why would parents/kids leave ?

This will help bond clubs, to make "juniors + seniors = Club" ..... not like currently at alot of clubs where both do their own things and wouldnt know who is who

I stand by my first statement .....[/quote]

one example is our under 11 team even now wants to play better teams because they have not had good opposition this year. If they find out they will be playing those same type of clubs for the next few years, what do you think they will want to do. It is not rocket science. They will want to leave, those kids need to play teams that are at their level not win most of their games by huge margins. This team could have been potential first team players for our club in a number of years time but with this system now those kids may move on and so affects our club to potentially have a very good senior team in years to come.

it is not all about winning and losing, it is about playing teams that give you a good competitive game, so to stop the the thrashing of others or being thrashed unfortunately you need to grade the teams and this is what our current A, B and C divisions give us or help achieve.

[The moyesiah]

Trials in Oct
Nov off
Pre-season Dec-Jan (players missing due to holidays and summer sports)
Season starts Feb (players missing due to summer sports)
Late March Summer sport players return after missing 5-6 rounds.
Imagine the grounds like WC/Metro/Cumby having an extra 4-8 games per age group = up to 48 more games a year in the NPL and even more for NSL teams.
After rescheduled games the season will be Feb-Nov.
I can see many coaches saying no thanks, it's just not worth it.

There are many positives and negatives.

[Željko Jurin]

Div 1 (premier league) bound South Adelaide
- Under 13A
- Under 14B
- Under 15C
No Under 16
No Under 17

'If' they get promoted ....

[matty2323]

Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come accross when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.

Ill give you an example: under 12's zones. (im familar with it because i coach u12's at playford)

u12 JPL Blue (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Raiders P15 W14 D1 L0 F166 A7 GD159 Points43
2. Playford P15 W12 D2 L1 F94 A14 GD80 Points38
9. Eastern P12 W1 D0 L11 F8 A82 GD-74 Points3
10. Western Toros P18 W0 D0 L18 F2 A155 GD-153 Points0

U12 JPL Red (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Birkalla P13 W13 L0 D0 F90 A11 GD79 Points39
2. Cumberland P13 W11 L2 D0 F67 A9 GD58 Points 33
8. Cobras P12 W2 L10 D0 F13 A80 GD-67 Points6
9. Sturt P14 W1 L13 D0 F6 A93 GD-87 Points3

U12 JPL Yellow (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Comets P13 W11 L1 D1 F44 A18 GD26 Points34
2. MetroStars P13 W9 L4 D0 F58 A41 GD17 Points27
8. White City P13 W3 L9 D1 F25 A52 GD-27 Points10
9. Western Strikers P14 W1 L9 D4 F24 A68 GD-44 Points7

Now normally its top 4 from each zone to create the 13A division. Now, JPL Yellow is considered the hardest league. Teams are quite even and each and every game is hard fought (as you can see by the For and Against stats in the goals columns). Compare that to Blue, Raiders and Playford, with Enfield are vastly superior to the rest of the competition. My boys play games where they're 10-0 up at half time. Ive seen Raiders win by 20 goals or more. Who does this benefit? No-one. But because Playfords 1st team (which i also play in) is in the State League, my kids are now forced to compete with the bottom sides of each zone? There may be 2-3 good teams in the whole division, then rest are 15-20 goal wins. No matter how good of a coach you're, no matter how much you focus on development, kids need to be tested in game situations. Playing in hard games (which is normally associated with the A division) week in week out test kids skill level, awareness and their ability to play the game at a high intensity/tempo.

Kids get bored of these huge wins. I have players asking to come off when we're 15-0 because they genuinely feel embarrassed and sorry for the other kids. They stop tackling cause they feel bad. Does this help their development? The whole point behind promotion and relegation and junior levels is to ensure the best teams in that particular age group are competing against each other...

[Željko Jurin]

one example is our under 11 team even now wants to play better teams because they have not had good opposition this year. If they find out they will be playing those same type of clubs for the next few years, what do you think they will want to do. It is not rocket science. They will want to leave, those kids need to play teams that are at their level not win most of their games by huge margins. This team could have been potential first team players for our club in a number of years time but with this system now those kids may move on and so affects our club to potentially have a very good senior team in years to come.

it is not all about winning and losing, it is about playing teams that give you a good competitive game, so to stop the the thrashing of others or being thrashed unfortunately you need to grade the teams and this is what our current A, B and C divisions give us or help achieve.

No offence, but you're basing your whole argument of the league structure on your u11 team ?

u12s would have been the same, zonal, hence weaker opposition..... and u13s is a whole new ball game

Coaches, structures, development, enjoyment, club atmosphere ..... get it right and NO parent/player will leave, doesnt matter what division you play

[Željko Jurin]

matty, again no disrespect, but youre also basing your argument on ONE team at your club, your u12s

If all, or atleast most of your junior teams (or any other State League team) were in A division, I would understand your argument

10% vs 90% ..... which way should we go ?

[robinfriday10]

E&D have done wonders for the northern areas clubs over the years. Para Hills had strong teams for years, yes their not as strong at the moment but that is where Raiders have benefitted. Modbury were strong in their juniors for a number of years but that has waned recently. E&D has supplied loads of players to the northern Fed clubs and always will because kids and their parents realise at 10/11 they need to go to the stronger league but most kids in the north start out at E&D. Salisbury and Playford to lesser degree lately but over the years the majority of seniors at these clubs were kids who progressed through from their juniors but came to these clubs via the numerous E&D clubs.
Was it about the time the McCormacks got involved that your juniors started improving?

[Mullo]

"Now normally its top 4 from each zone to create the 13A division"
Says who?


The proposed structure supports the senior squad points system & FFA development pathway - All are intended to make the bigger clubs stronger while the smaller clubs can make do.
It's all about making socceroos and employing sports administrators, the rest is noise.

[Željko Jurin]

Was it about the time the McCormacks got involved that your juniors started improving?

Sorry to say, but it was actually when they left ...... not many kids from that era still at the club

[robinfriday10]

employing sports administraters??? so what chance does the sport have then!!

[robinfriday10]

but i'm sure you have plenty of ex E&D boys ZJ....i know of a few

[matty2323]

Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come accross when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.

Agree !!!

Our juniors were a shambles 6-7 years ago, all in the lowest divisions and getting thumped ..... I rekon we are doing ok at the moment

Get the right people in doing things for the right reasons (and not self interests), the right coaches, be as honest as possible, and you can only move forward, doesnt matter what division you are in

Zeljko, i consider Raiders the benchmark for the northern zone. Great facilities, well financed and a very well supported club with a great culture. It was one of the reasons i moved their as a senior player at the start of the year. 6-7 years ago your club was a shambles, but the introduction of SSG's and some excellent coaches has helped you improve significantly. I take nothing away from the hard work people have put in.

But unfortunately Playford don't have the funds, or reputation, to attract players (and coaches) like Raiders. Coach for 4 seasons now and Ive lost 11 players to Raiders. Why? Because you're a better club and parents dont mind the extra 15 minute drive for the same level of coaching but superior facilities and reputation. This i can accept. But my saving grace is that my kids are always developing and able to compete in a competitive league where they can test themselves. Now, my kids are going to miss out on the opportunity to compete in a competitive league because my senior team is poor? That's unfair. I don't care if it only affects 1 team per club in certain age groups, that 1 team has earned the right to compete at that level.

You only have to see the current standings in all junior set ups to see that most age groups are taking care of themselves in regards to standings and divisions. Most PL clubs have teams playing A division. Thats excellent and a credit to those clubs development. They're attracting junior players because they have a good reputation at senior level and good coaches at junior level. But what about those who aren't? I listen to that silly bloke JohnDedes talk about juniors funding seniors, and i dont believe it for one second.. but this type of structure will see that happen. Junior fees will go up so they can fund better players at senior level to keep them in the A division in order to keep hold of their best juniors. Lose your status to the PL and you can kiss your junior set up goodbye!

[Željko Jurin]

but i'm sure you have plenty of ex E&D boys ZJ....i know of a few

Did I say we didnt ?

All the good work that E&D do ..... does that mean if they play 1 or 2 years at E&D, and 5-6 at Raiders, they are good players because of E&D ?

And why do they come to us (as you say they do), and not all the other Northen FFSA clubs, which would then make those clubs also stronger ?

[matty2323]

the way i see this set up is If your senior National team makes the World Cup or European Cup, then that guarantees your u23's, u21's u19's u17's etc etc a spot. All those nations trying to develop are left to rot while the elite get better and better... there's a reason teams have to qualify for spots, divisions, leagues etc is so we have the better players (no matter their club, nationality etc) competing against the better players. What will happen if we have clubs in the Premier League with a junior team finishing bottom in every age group getting pumped 30-0 every game while clubs sit top in State League junior set ups winning every game 30-0??...

[Željko Jurin]

6-7 years ago your club was a shambles, but the introduction of SSG's and some excellent coaches has helped you improve significantly. I take nothing away from the hard work people have put in.

But unfortunately Playford don't have the funds, or reputation, to attract players (and coaches) like Raiders.

Wrong !!
6-7 years ago neither did we and yes we were a shambles, in all the bottom leagues, and our pitches were cow paddocks riddled with 3-corner jacks !!

Passion, hard work, belief, just doing it/anything (coaching, admin, mowing lawns, pulling weeds) for the club, not for self interests ..... it CAN be done, we have proved it !!

One day I will introduce myself, because I like your beliefs and I can see you are PASSIONATE ... and this is where you have to start !!
Need 4-5 of you, and its possible !

[Željko Jurin]

This is the fork in the road ..... do clubs, WHOLE clubs (juniors and seniors together) want to try and improve and move FORWARD together for the good of the game and their club, or just plod along and make up the numbers and hope to survive ?

There is room for all, but there needs to be some tough decisions, and every club has to be placed where their WHOLE club is best suited .... NPL or State League

[west adelaide]

Who ever gets relegated in 2014 can kiss 50% of their junior players goodbye. The scramble to leave those 2 clubs will be worse than the Titanic. If we at West didn't gain promotion (still not 100% yet) this year our Junior set up would be decimated beyond recognition.

[Željko Jurin]

Who ever gets relegated in 2014 can kiss 50% of their junior players goodbye. The scramble to leave those 2 clubs will be worse than the Titanic. If we at West didn't gain promotion (still not 100% yet) this year are Junior set up would be decimated beyond recognition.

Enfield and Cobras not setting any junior A divisions on fire ..... Enfield 17s yes, and alot should get a shot playing seniors next year as they should

Remember, if your senior team gets relegated (which might happen to my club one day), can they not get promoted the next year ?
If you have good junior coaches, and the club is being run correctly, why would a child/parent leave if you have the same good coach the next year ? Because you might win a few games 10-0, so we have to leave to a club I have no friends at ?
Ask the kids what they would want .... dont decide for them .....

[matty2323]

6-7 years ago your club was a shambles, but the introduction of SSG's and some excellent coaches has helped you improve significantly. I take nothing away from the hard work people have put in.

But unfortunately Playford don't have the funds, or reputation, to attract players (and coaches) like Raiders.

Wrong !!
6-7 years ago neither did we and yes we were a shambles, in all the bottom leagues, and our pitches were cow paddocks riddled with 3-corner jacks !!

Passion, hard work, belief, just doing it/anything (coaching, admin, mowing lawns, pulling weeds) for the club, not for self interests ..... it CAN be done, we have proved it !!

One day I will introduce myself, because I like your beliefs and I can see you are PASSIONATE ... and this is where you have to start !!
Need 4-5 of you, and its possible !

we have all those people at our club. But we dont have the community a club like Raiders have. I go back to when i was a junior, Playford, Para Hills and Modbury were the top 3 in almost every age group. The senior teams were doing well, clubs were well financed and E&D was producing copious amounts of talent. Then, inexplicably, all 3 clubs have been on a downward slope. Raiders has been there to pick up the slack. Surrounded by the likes of Enfield, Para Hills, Modbury and Playford who have all spent significant time in the lower divisions over the past 6-7 years has made Raiders the place to be. Dont get me wrong, you've harnessed it and put it to good use, but you're an attraction.

To just say "it can be done" is naive. If it "could be done" by anyone, then we wouldn't have to same teams winning leagues and trophies through out the world for the past 20 years over and over again. We also compete with Central Districts and the huge array of northern kids who play AFL (their resurgence and 1 billion premierships didnt help either). Plenty of excuses, and they have been used as excuses, but im at the club every night seeing people work their ass off and i see this structural change as a kick in the teeth.

I use my team as an example because i can relate to them. Every session i talk to them about ball speed, playing with intensity, having a good first touch under pressure and quick decision making.. how can i expect them to understand those terms when we're winning 20-0 every week? I want A division football as a coach, not because it helps attract the best players (although it does) but so my kids have the chance to compete against the best and allow them to develop and prepare for senior football at Playford. Having said that, one of my teams got relegated and i never once considered dropping players to survive, because the experience of relegation is also a valuable one. By not rewarding kids for performance, by not allowing them a natural pathway at their given club, all we're doing is re-inforcing the PL clubs with stronger juniors.

Your club worked hard and earnt the right to have a strong junior set up, but what about those who havent? what about those who are now going to get a huge influx of talent simply because they're PL status? It happens at first team level, you see all the major clubs poach the better players from lower clubs with the promise of a higher standard of football. Juniors are no different, and the only defense lower clubs had against this was by having juniors playing in the top division for their age group.

[Željko Jurin]

If we at West didn't gain promotion (still not 100% yet) this year our Junior set up would be decimated beyond recognition.

Why ??

Only your 15s and 16s are in the A's, and the better ones would go up to u18s wouldnt they ??

No change to your 12s, 13s and 14s

[matty2323]

Who ever gets relegated in 2014 can kiss 50% of their junior players goodbye. The scramble to leave those 2 clubs will be worse than the Titanic. If we at West didn't gain promotion (still not 100% yet) this year are Junior set up would be decimated beyond recognition.

Enfield and Cobras not setting any junior A divisions on fire ..... Enfield 17s yes, and alot should get a shot playing seniors next year as they should

Remember, if your senior team gets relegated (which might happen to my club one day), can they not get promoted the next year ?
If you have good junior coaches, and the club is being run correctly, why would a child/parent leave if you have the same good coach the next year ? Because you might win a few games 10-0, so we have to leave to a club I have no friends at ?
Ask the kids what they would want .... dont decide for them .....

Firstly, i hope clubs like West Adelaide, and other clubs look at the competition as a whole and think about what they would do if they were at a state league club. Its horrendous. It needs to be opposed.

As for why would kids leave? simple. The best coaches and the best players will be at PL clubs. You talk about getting the right coaches in etc, but under the current system, i could be at the worst club in the world, but because my kids like my coaching style and they get to play in the top division, they would stay. Take away all that, and now you have the lesser clubs, like poorer structures being forced to compete in a lesser division.. you will find it hard to keep players and coaches! And who could blame them? i hear my kids talking about playing in the A division next year, it drives them. Every kid that has left me for Raiders has shook my hand, said i was a good coach but they feel they need to be playing in the top division for their development. Even if the coaching they're getting isn't as good, its still going to be close... but combine that with being surrounded by better talent and playing better teams, you will play better and develop faster.

[Željko Jurin]

1/ we have all those people at our club. But we dont have the community a club like Raiders have.

2/ I go back to when i was a junior, Playford, Para Hills and Modbury were the top 3 in almost every age group. The senior teams were doing well, clubs were well financed and E&D was producing copious amounts of talent. Then, inexplicably, all 3 clubs have been on a downward slope.

2 interesting points .....

1/ Our 'community', I'm assuming you mean Croatian community ? ..... I can tell you right now, we have <10% kids with Croat heritage.

2/ This is the real question you need to ask .... why ?? The 'fork in the road' I said before ....

[harrycripps]

Matty 2323

I understand what you are saying, especially about kids playing at their optimum level.

However unfortunately senior teams are not able to attract decent crowds no matter how good their team is or what league they are in.

Why is it that many people don’t go to watch? I believe it is because there is far too much club hopping done by players, senior and junior, and the clubs are not building a club culture.

As bad as it seems in the short term to be in the State League for juniors to start with, and the fact that you will lose some players, after a year or two it will all settle down and the kids that come to your club will probably stay for a long time and become club people.

Club people will always follow one club, through thick and thin, and when you eventually gain promotion you will be a club that will be sustainable and not a club that only survives because of large benefactors and false loyalty.

PS, that tackle your centre back did on my son last week was shocking, that kid needs a lot of developing.