Are Juniors funding Senior set ups in Adelaide Town?

[themessenger]

$800pa for a junior player, say 15 players per team, say 12 teams in a club = $144,000pa income from a junior club.

This is obviously must be funding senior sides in clubs in Adelaide???

What does the forum think here?

Senior players pay fees too don't they?

Under 18s, Reserves First team players all pay fees.

And u18s and Reserves players don't get paid to play either. But one day those same players aspire to play First Team, and get the rewards that being a first team player brings.

[Stitch This]

Senior players pay fees too don't they?

Under 18s, Reserves First team players all pay fees.

......

Depends on the club.

Some do, some don't.

[SILENT P]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

What apparell do the Fulham boys get?

[Steve#4]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

What apparell do the Fulham boys get?

This is one of the problems that increase the fees, I thought clubs were teaching how to play the game not a fashion parade.
Kids don't need Track suits and new kits every season to play the game.

[SILENT P]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

What apparell do the Fulham boys get?

This is one of the problems that increase the fees, I thought clubs were teaching how to play the game not a fashion parade.
Kids don't need Track suits and new kits every season to play the game.

That might be the case Steve#4, but some clubs like the juniors to look the part.

Once again, its up to each kids parents to decide which club is right for them.

[de niro]

What apparell do the Fulham boys get?

This is one of the problems that increase the fees, I thought clubs were teaching how to play the game not a fashion parade.
Kids don't need Track suits and new kits every season to play the game.

That might be the case Steve#4, but some clubs like the juniors to look the part.

Once again, its up to each kids parents to decide which club is right for them.

Try again Slient P, an extra tracksuit or jacket or new strip every year is not going to explain the $400 fee difference.....

[The moyesiah]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.

FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

You also don't pay the amounts to enter senior teams into the Fed system.

[SILENT P]

de niro, all I'm saying is there are many differences what juniors get from club to club. Whether the cost should be that high, is up to the individual clubs.

I know one club that gets the following and all to keep;

2 playing strips (home and away)
soccer ball
bag
full tracksuit

Then I know another club that gets;

1 playing strip (home only)
tracksuit top

[General Tony Cash]

de niro, all I'm saying is there are many differences what juniors get from club to club. Whether the cost should be that high, is up to the individual clubs.

I know one club that gets the following and all to keep;

2 playing strips (home and away)
soccer ball
bag
full tracksuit

Then I know another club that gets;

1 playing strip (home only)
tracksuit top

So what do these 2 clubs charge?

[SILENT P]

de niro, all I'm saying is there are many differences what juniors get from club to club. Whether the cost should be that high, is up to the individual clubs.

I know one club that gets the following and all to keep;

2 playing strips (home and away)
soccer ball
bag
full tracksuit

Then I know another club that gets;

1 playing strip (home only)
tracksuit top

So what do these 2 clubs charge?

I don't know the exact price but like de niro said, there is roughly $300-$400 difference.

[bigpond]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.

FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

You also don't pay the amounts to enter senior teams into the Fed system.

1 full strip and a ball.

Club has a full range of merchandise for purchase IF parents wish to do so but is not compulsory.

Most get a hoodie or jacket for $30.

In regards to Senior fees to enter FFSA comp we know what they are and about $5000 for State League and $8000 for Premier.

So where is all that extra money going?

Don't forget Fulham has Senior Men's Amateur League teams which cost about $2000 in team fees and our 1st team pay $100 each for rego and that's it.

Also most clubs get some gate takings at home games again extra revenue.

So why then are junior fees still so high - goes back to the paying the 1st team - sure they should be paid but these junior kids are being bent over and some of these players are well over paid and the position of some if these teams on the ladder for the amount of wages being forked out makes you think why not give more of the juniors a chance and save urself some wages and keep the junior fees down.

[themessenger]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

Maybe another way to look at it is that without all the FFSA clubs that DO have senior teams there would be no FFSA run junior competition for Fulham to enter teams into.

Are the 30 State and Premier League clubs then subsidising the competition for clubs such as Fulham?

[Željko Jurin]

Stereotyping to the max here .... that 'all' junior clubs fees go to senior wages ..... a bit like all Muslims are terrorists ?? (Which they're not of course !!)

I know where our junior fees go .... Can anyone else tell me of a club that owns its own complex of 4 full size pitches ? Hence do you know the cost to maintain to a decent standard, plus all water and electricity costs, etc? With NO council help ....and our fees are only mid range too compared to some

[bigpond]

Stereotyping to the max here .... that 'all' junior clubs fees go to senior wages ..... a bit like all Muslims are terrorists ?? (Which they're not of course !!)

I know where our junior fees go .... Can anyone else tell me of a club that owns its own complex of 4 full size pitches ? Hence do you know the cost to maintain to a decent standard, plus all water and electricity costs, etc? With NO council help ....and our fees are only mid range too compared to some

Was never saying all junior fees goes to wages.

Big clubs like City, Raiders etc with big facilities also have big costs I am aware of that but then again Fulham with 4 main pitches and lights has a fair bit to maintain as well eg line marking, light costs etc.

Just putting it out there that perhaps some clubs could rein there fees in a little - some just take the easy option of jacking up the fees.

And the senior clubs subsiding it for Fulham - think without the extra revenue the FFSA get for Fulhams 300 junior players and 25 plus teams it might actually help keep FFSA costs down which are already quite high.

[The moyesiah]

Stereotyping to the max here .... that 'all' junior clubs fees go to senior wages ..... a bit like all Muslims are terrorists ?? (Which they're not of course !!)

I know where our junior fees go .... Can anyone else tell me of a club that owns its own complex of 4 full size pitches ? Hence do you know the cost to maintain to a decent standard, plus all water and electricity costs, etc? With NO council help ....and our fees are only mid range too compared to some

Was never saying all junior fees goes to wages.

Big clubs like City, Raiders etc with big facilities also have big costs I am aware of that but then again Fulham with 4 main pitches and lights has a fair bit to maintain as well eg line marking, light costs etc.

Just putting it out there that perhaps some clubs could rein there fees in a little - some just take the easy option of jacking up the fees.

And the senior clubs subsiding it for Fulham - think without the extra revenue the FFSA get for Fulhams 300 junior players and 25 plus teams it might actually help keep FFSA costs down which are already quite high.

If the FFSA said no to your juniors I would say atleast half, would leave to FFSA clubs and play in their JSL teams so the FFSA would lose nothing really. Personally I think all non senior FFSA clubs should stay in the E&D and be happy with that, after all your clubs are only playing against other clubs left overs and maybe the E&D would be better environment to develop.

[aufc_123]

Stereotyping to the max here .... that 'all' junior clubs fees go to senior wages ..... a bit like all Muslims are terrorists ?? (Which they're not of course !!)

I know where our junior fees go .... Can anyone else tell me of a club that owns its own complex of 4 full size pitches ? Hence do you know the cost to maintain to a decent standard, plus all water and electricity costs, etc? With NO council help ....and our fees are only mid range too compared to some

Was never saying all junior fees goes to wages.

Big clubs like City, Raiders etc with big facilities also have big costs I am aware of that but then again Fulham with 4 main pitches and lights has a fair bit to maintain as well eg line marking, light costs etc.

Just putting it out there that perhaps some clubs could rein there fees in a little - some just take the easy option of jacking up the fees.

And the senior clubs subsiding it for Fulham - think without the extra revenue the FFSA get for Fulhams 300 junior players and 25 plus teams it might actually help keep FFSA costs down which are already quite high.

I thought Fulham did pay wages to their senior team?

[de niro]

Let me put it in perspective:

Fulham fees range from $250 to $475 for under 6 to under 17 with as many junior boys teams as any other FFSA Club.FFSA fees are the same as any other ie team fees, rego fees etc

Clubs like City I know charge $875 for under 11 and other Super League Clubs are the same so who knows what they charge for 15s, 16s etc

You do the maths so where does all this extra money go from the junior fees - u bet to pay the 1st team players.

Fulham gets by with fees at these levels because we don't pay what these State and Super League clubs do in wages to players - outrageous amounts if what I hear is correct.

We still have junior co-ordinators which are paid positions and 7 light towers that use a lot of electricity but we still get by on these junior fees as well.

Wake up parents - these high fees u pay at these clubs are to pay the over inflated egos of the 1st team.

John Dedes u r right on the money.

Maybe another way to look at it is that without all the FFSA clubs that DO have senior teams there would be no FFSA run junior competition for Fulham to enter teams into.

Are the 30 State and Premier League clubs then subsidising the competition for clubs such as Fulham?

Actually, it's the opposite - even at FFSA level juniors are indirectly subsidising seniors. Senior comp runs at a loss, while juniors makes a tidy surplus.

[de niro]

Stereotyping to the max here .... that 'all' junior clubs fees go to senior wages ..... a bit like all Muslims are terrorists ?? (Which they're not of course !!)

I know where our junior fees go .... Can anyone else tell me of a club that owns its own complex of 4 full size pitches ? Hence do you know the cost to maintain to a decent standard, plus all water and electricity costs, etc? With NO council help ....and our fees are only mid range too compared to some

None probably but then, how many have a community club like the Croatian Club that Raiders have to help support and fund facilities? This is not meant as any criticism mind you, I'm very jealous of the support you have.

[lefty]

This debate will continue until the cows come home. Perhaps clubs can answer these three questions.

1. Is the % of your income that is invested in junior development achieve the necessary outcomes of player development?

2. Is the % of your income that is invested in senior wages sustainable?

3. Is the % of your income that is invested in juniors & seniors balanced & represent value for money?

Personally I believe every club judging by comments you read & hear is that all will answer yes to 2. some may also answer yes to 1. or 3. but very few if any will answer yes to all 3 if you do then your clubs is on the right track.

[Cruie]

Oh I do love this topic ... I miss it when it's not somewhere near the top of the board.

This debate will continue until the cows come home. Perhaps clubs can answer these three questions.

1. Is the % of your income that is invested in junior development achieve the necessary outcomes of player development?
...

I asked that the last time this topic was aired, 6 months or so ago, lefty ... No one could even really supply any indicators for measuring the outcomes; nevermind actually quantifying the outcomes.


From what I read and hear, I think what clubs need are better book-keepers.

At my former club - let's call it a Community Club, for want of a better title - there are/were separate accounts for the Junior Setup and the Senior Setup. Both used the same bank accounts etc, but both sides knew exactly who was bringing in what and who was spending what. So, for example, the costs for running and maintaining the floodlights were apportioned by the amount of time each "team" used those facilities. The same splits were done for income streams (whether player/parent fees or sponsorships).


If this debate really does rage around parents/players/clubs - and I can't honestly believe it does, given how easy it is to "solve" - then it amazes me every other club does not do the same thing. And if there is that much distrust that the book-keeper would be accused of fiddling, then get the accounts audited (any "proper" club almost certainly has the consolidated accounts audited in any case). Auditing costs little and might even be done in exchange for a bit of sponsorship



And to the bloke from Fulham ... I could ask the same about the $200-$300 difference between those stated Junior fees and those of my former club.

I guess it all comes down to what a parent wants for their kid(s) and at which club they think those aims will be achieved (and/or whether they want a tracksuit thrown in).



(Oh look, home-time, that wasted the last few minutes quite productively! ;) )

[bigpond]

I thought Fulham did pay wages to their senior team?

If they do pay then keeping there junior fees that low and still paying they must be doing something right

[lefty]

Oh I do love this topic ... I miss it when it's not somewhere near the top of the board.

This debate will continue until the cows come home. Perhaps clubs can answer these three questions.

1. Is the % of your income that is invested in junior development achieve the necessary outcomes of player development?
...

I asked that the last time this topic was aired, 6 months or so ago, lefty ... No one could even really supply any indicators for measuring the outcomes; nevermind actually quantifying the outcomes.


From what I read and hear, I think what clubs need are better book-keepers.

At my former club - let's call it a Community Club, for want of a better title - there are/were separate accounts for the Junior Setup and the Senior Setup. Both used the same bank accounts etc, but both sides knew exactly who was bringing in what and who was spending what. So, for example, the costs for running and maintaining the floodlights were apportioned by the amount of time each "team" used those facilities. The same splits were done for income streams (whether player/parent fees or sponsorships).


If this debate really does rage around parents/players/clubs - and I can't honestly believe it does, given how easy it is to "solve" - then it amazes me every other club does not do the same thing. And if there is that much distrust that the book-keeper would be accused of fiddling, then get the accounts audited (any "proper" club almost certainly has the consolidated accounts audited in any case). Auditing costs little and might even be done in exchange for a bit of sponsorship



And to the bloke from Fulham ... I could ask the same about the $200-$300 difference between those stated Junior fees and those of my former club.

I guess it all comes down to what a parent wants for their kid(s) and at which club they think those aims will be achieved (and/or whether they want a tracksuit thrown in).



(Oh look, home-time, that wasted the last few minutes quite productively! ;) )

Unfortunately some clubs have this attitude of eliteness & use the success (or apparent) of their senior teams to justify junior fees. Could you imagine a club that decided that the most important area of invesment is their juniors lets invest in them & then the seniors should be able to take care of itself. Problem is the past & present culture turns that philosophy on its head because as it stands you have to be at the top of the tree in your seniors to justify to the kids & parents that your club has a successful development pathway.

So along the lines of my original question #3. would you rather invest money in providing a successful development environment for your juniors with the best coaches, facilities & equiptment or would you rather invest in a senior players' second (or main) source of income for the sake of attempting to win a trophy.

If my assumption is correct most clubs would not have an audited set of accounts each year & nor would they account for all of their income & expenses through proper accounting methods. If for example a club has a cash register that doesnt record its canteen & BBQ sales etc (cash tills) then how can you be confident that everything is above board. If anyone comes on here & tries to justify their clubs expenditure, financials & the amount they charge their juniors then the question I would ask is show me receipts.

[Stitch This]

If my assumption is correct most clubs would not have an audited set of accounts each year & nor would they account for all of their income & expenses through proper accounting methods. If for example a club has a cash register that doesnt record its canteen & BBQ sales etc (cash tills) then how can you be confident that everything is above board. If anyone comes on here & tries to justify their clubs expenditure, financials & the amount they charge their juniors then the question I would ask is show me receipts.

Looking forward to seeing Parafield Gardens audited financial reports posted in this forum early next week - complete with the receipts from the beer van

[lefty]

If my assumption is correct most clubs would not have an audited set of accounts each year & nor would they account for all of their income & expenses through proper accounting methods. If for example a club has a cash register that doesnt record its canteen & BBQ sales etc (cash tills) then how can you be confident that everything is above board. If anyone comes on here & tries to justify their clubs expenditure, financials & the amount they charge their juniors then the question I would ask is show me receipts.

Looking forward to seeing Parafield Gardens audited financial reports posted in this forum early next week - complete with the receipts from the beer van

That coming from a club that doesnt have paper rolls in its till to print receipts

[Cruie]

Unfortunately some clubs have this attitude of eliteness & use the success (or apparent) of their senior teams to justify junior fees. Could you imagine a club that decided that the most important area of invesment is their juniors lets invest in them & then the seniors should be able to take care of itself. Problem is the past & present culture turns that philosophy on its head because as it stands you have to be at the top of the tree in your seniors to justify to the kids & parents that your club has a successful development pathway.

So along the lines of my original question #3. would you rather invest money in providing a successful development environment for your juniors with the best coaches, facilities & equiptment or would you rather invest in a senior players' second (or main) source of income for the sake of attempting to win a trophy.

If my assumption is correct most clubs would not have an audited set of accounts each year & nor would they account for all of their income & expenses through proper accounting methods. If for example a club has a cash register that doesnt record its canteen & BBQ sales etc (cash tills) then how can you be confident that everything is above board. If anyone comes on here & tries to justify their clubs expenditure, financials & the amount they charge their juniors then the question I would ask is show me receipts.

Any club that is incorporated - and surely the big clubs are that, even if "only" as not-for-profit companies? - has an audited set of accounts (probably only a limited audit, I admit). So tying FFSA regos to member lists to income/subs would/should be checked. Receipts might be checked in full or sample-checked (more likely).

I'd be amazed if any of the big clubs weren't run on that model, if only to offer the committee/directors legal protection. The community club I mentioned is run on that model and it is a very long way from a "big club".

As for money from the bar & barbie; the OP is about where the fees that parents pay go ... not where the cash from the sale of beer and snags goes. So lets not open that particular tinny of worms, eh ;)



But I reckon your other point is a good one.

Parents need to look at what they want for their kids, what their kids want, what a club provides and what its record - with kids - is. I don't have kids ... but if I did and I wanted to get them "the best" coaching, I reckon I'd be asking how many of that glorious senior team came through from that club's Junior teams.

(What I wouldn't want, is a tracksuit ... or a bag ...)


There's a repost by Jonny Dep a bit further down the board; whilst it's a bit over the top in places, it does make the point that parents are often lacking enough knowledge to make informed decisions. I reckon that is a big part of any problem.

[mike17]

PEOPLE ARE INSANE IF THEY TRY TO JUSTIFY $800 A YEAR

TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF IF YOU DO THIS


its the same people that never blame adelaide united when they fuck up

also its not being negative to point out things that are wrong. it is negative to ignore or disregard such things


btw some good points made on here once again

[Tzon]

PEOPLE ARE INSANE IF THEY TRY TO JUSTIFY $800 A YEAR

TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF IF YOU DO THIS


its the same people that never blame adelaide united when they shiraz up

also its not being negative to point out things that are wrong. it is negative to ignore or disregard such things


btw some good points made on here once again

Bravo. Top post.