No debate about "Don't milk (junior) cash cow" column

[AL K HOLIC]

Do any clubs charge their junior families for a mid season dinner that must be attended? Then again charge families for end of season dinner for kids to receive a cheap pendant to say thank you? But wait the seniors receive a full dinner etc at no charge. It would be nice for the kids to receive something from the club they play for even a hello once in awhile. We want kids to learn to play and stay at a club, this is why the emblem is over the heart. I think some people are forgetting this.

Toros did mid year dinner and end of year BBQ not within the fees, however this was not compulsory and was more of a fundraiser get together.

[AL K HOLIC]

[quote="Stitch This"You forgot the fekin water bill ... The almost the biggest cost every club has besides rego fees. Modbury didn't. No wonder their fees are so high this year

Clearly that was your attempt at a joke, because apart from Toros and their free fees, Modbury would be one of the cheapest clubs for junior fees next season, and definitely one of the cheapest fee structures for SSF players, from $220 for Under 6's up to $350 for Under 11s.

I have heard of clubs charging as much as $800 for some SSF age groups.[/quote]
I just knew that was going to happen.

Get Nicky Tanner to explain it to you.[/quote]


Well that obviously went over my head and maybe Matt will reveal all. lol.

But is very frustrating for us as a club that some people/parents have no idea what it costs in terms of volunteer hours and money to operate a football club these days.

Yes we are incurring horrendous water bills and little that can be done about that, but so too do we recognise that raising the fees for our junior and senior players (who all pay the same amount) is not the solution. As a club we are doing what we can to keep fees at an affordable level, despite escalating utility costs and the additional burden incurred by a 30 round season next year.

Our Club AGM is being held next Monday night and there will be vacancies on the Committee to fill. I wonder how many members will be coming along eager to nominate for a position on the committee next year. Zero. Nil. Nada. Nix. is my guess.[/quote]


-------------


I guess the Toros are setting the template, if they are around next year and can continue to offer $150-$200 fees across all junior sides, the question has to be asked, why can't others. We all know junior fees don't support seniors so it should not affect the seniors player/staff wage bill. If most money is made over bars, canteens, and fundraisers then technically it should mean more money, as there are more teams/members at the club.

[Cruie]

I think a lot of you are probably in the higher reaches of the FFSA, with some of the fees quoted.

Up in the Hills (yeah, we've not got running water and stuff to pay for!) life is much cheaper ... and as far as I know, we (Mt Barker) are considered one of the most expensive clubs.

2012 Fee Structure:
Development Squad - $60
U/8, U/9 - $110
U/10. U/12G - $125
U/12 - $140
U/14, U/16, U17G - $155
U/14G - $155
Open Womens - $230
Senior Mens - $230

We give each player a shirt - We want it back at the end of the season (no names!)
We ask parents to buy red socks and red shorts (not from us, from any retailer they like)

Our kids play in the AHJSA (FFSA Affiliate).

The biggest expense, after rego fees to the AHJSA/FFSA is REF FEES. Our ground is council owned, we share it with softball (out of footy season) and Hockey (In footy season) to be fair to the council our fees are not onerous.

We don't provide HT oranges/water; again, parents are expected to provide that (though you're welcome to fill your bottle from the canteen taps!)

We do occasionally sell some merchandise, but if you added up the "profit" from that, you'd struggle to pay for a round of drinks for the committee.

And we still get complaints that it is too expensive and that we don't do anywhere near a good enough job.

C'est la vie.

[johnydep]

Read the following threads, if you're serious about adding to this debate -

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64900

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64246

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=65275

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64440

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=63858

[Cruie]

Read the following threads, if you're serious about adding to this debate -

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64900

Don't really see what that was has to do with fees. While the OP was concerned about Scholarships (reducing fees) 99% of the resulting topic is about "poaching kids"?

Scholarships are a matter for each club, but - assuming the club in question was operating a "trials" system - I think it would be great to see some form of sholarship system that was affordable to the club and provided on some sort of assessed basis (i.e. given to the best kids from the poorest families ... which would need financial assessments, which would NOT be easy to do ... rather than simply the "best" kids)

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64246

I would imagine whether or not fees matter as part of a club selection process, would depend to a great extent on the financial wherewithal of the family in question?

Putting aside "promises made" and "reputation of club/coach" I would imagine some families make a choice based more on fees than football, but that the majority will pay the asking-rate for their kid(s) to go to the club who they believe will best enhance their kids' skill-level (or all round development ... or whatever).

Someone in the thread linked above suggested all clubs should charge the same fees ... then it would remove money from the equation. Can't say I'm a fan of that proposal, as it would mean clubs who were willing to provide a cheaper "service" for parents/kids would not be allowed to. If parents believe Club-X is worth $500 more a season than Club-Y then why take that choice away?

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=65275

I made the point at the top of my original response - I think this whole topic is for clubs-who-want-to-be-professional (for want of a better term), rather than for clubs who want to get kids playing football.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that there are 3 types of "football experience" in SA (for Juniors). And I guess this set of topics is aimed at those clubs "trying to develop the very best prospective talent into the very best talent".

Like I put, that's not our focus as a club.

(but, just to add my 10c ... $3000+ seems an awful lot ... so $21,000+ from age 10-17 ... but then I guess many parents buy their kid the very best bike, computer, whatever; so there's little difference with life-in-general, in the end, I guess?)

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=64440

I don't like commenting on clubs I know little to nothing about, and have no direct experience of. I applaud their initiative and say that I wish as a club we were in a position to make a similar offer.

We'd face the problem that we do our very best to accept every single kid who comes to us ... rather than have a set number of teams and "trial" to fill those slots. So we'd have an open-ended commitment which I doubt any club could afford?

We go the other way and try to keep our costs to an absolute minimum, try to drum up as much sponsorship as we can and look to provide as much football as we can for as many as want to come. It's been 4 or 5 years since we had to put up fees (and only then by <$20 a season, pro-rata).

Regardless of all that, best of luck to Toros - whoever they are - and I hope they get a good number of kids playing the game under their scheme (which - being an old cynic - I suspect won't be offered in every subsequent year?)

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... =7&t=63858

One of the "markers" we set ourselves as a club is to try to remain competitive with the fee-structure of other sports. And it is proving a very difficult thing to achieve.

I think there are all sorts of reasons for that, not least the "profile" of other sports (footy, cricket etc). From sponsorship to getting parents and volunteers involved, my experience of clubs from other codes is they tend to be able to drum up more. I also think there is some merit in the statement made by someone on that topic, that "more money filters down" to clubs from other codes/sports, than does to football (probably as a direct result of Big Emul 'Eskey's wages!?)

I do often find myself envious of the profile and - apparent - community success of, in particular, the little-league AFL clubs. They appear to enjoy a similar following and level of support to amateur cliubs back home (UK). But I guess that is a product of playing one of the leading sports in this country. Being "niche" is not always the easy-way




Thanks for linking the topics

... but, like I put in my original post (and you can judge from the level of our fees which I provided in that post), I don't think this set of topics has much at all to do with the vast majority of kids who come to play for our club, or our club in general.

[redmum]

I think a lot of you are probably in the higher reaches of the FFSA, with some of the fees quoted.

Up in the Hills (yeah, we've not got running water and stuff to pay for!) life is much cheaper ... and as far as I know, we (Mt Barker) are considered one of the most expensive clubs.

2012 Fee Structure:
Development Squad - $60
U/8, U/9 - $110
U/10. U/12G - $125
U/12 - $140
U/14, U/16, U17G - $155
U/14G - $155
Open Womens - $230
Senior Mens - $230

We give each player a shirt - We want it back at the end of the season (no names!)
We ask parents to buy red socks and red shorts (not from us, from any retailer they like)

Our kids play in the AHJSA (FFSA Affiliate).

The biggest expense, after rego fees to the AHJSA/FFSA is REF FEES. Our ground is council owned, we share it with softball (out of footy season) and Hockey (In footy season) to be fair to the council our fees are not onerous.

We don't provide HT oranges/water; again, parents are expected to provide that (though you're welcome to fill your bottle from the canteen taps!)

We do occasionally sell some merchandise, but if you added up the "profit" from that, you'd struggle to pay for a round of drinks for the committee.

And we still get complaints that it is too expensive and that we don't do anywhere near a good enough job.

C'est la vie.

^^This

Redson gets everything he needs at the Hills club he is at, is playing quality football (and loving it!), gets to attend a quality clinic for 15 weeks for a measly $50 and fees are pretty much half of what these clubs in the 'burbs are charging.

[Bomber]

Horses for courses. All good if the kids want a kick around and just some fun - great! But if any player wants to get more serious, well pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys (as coaches).
I applaud the offer though. Quite obviously if you dont give the kids kits, training gear, decent ongoing tuition, decent facilities then expenses can be kept down. Although I wont hold my breath that a swag of decent players will come through the system.

[Wraith]

Horses for courses. All good if the kids want a kick around and just some fun - great! But if any player wants to get more serious, well pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys (as coaches).
I applaud the offer though. Quite obviously if you dont give the kids kits, training gear, decent ongoing tuition, decent facilities then expenses can be kept down. Although I wont hold my breath that a swag of decent players will come through the system.

+1.

[mancity]

Out of curiousity does the FFSA or FFA provide any annual grants to clubs?

I'm involved with a district cricket club, of which there are 13 in Adelaide, and SACA ( South Australian Cricket Association) provide an annual grant of $50k. Its quite a long process to get the grant and you must justify what the $s will be spent on, but if done properly it is received annually.
These district clubs are the pathway for future state and Australian cricketers, therefore the grants are generally spent on coaching, facilities and equipment.
We also do loads of fundraising, gain sponsors and have excellent ground share agreements to keep subs down.
I assume community cricket clubs also receive annual grants from SACA.
Might explain one reason why the subs for district cricket clubs range between $200 and $300 from juniors to seniors.

Until the higher bodies start pumping some money into the clubs the subs won't come down unfortunately.
Although I dont see the point in a new kit each year for the players, surely sponsors can be signed to 2 or 3 year deals if thats the issue and does it matter if a name is on the back ?

[redmum]

For those saying that the AHJSA doesn't provide quality coaches, and that the kids use it as 'just a kickatound', you obviously haven't been out there to see.

I have had my son through clubs which charge astronomical fees, and I can tell you he is getting the same FFSA coaching now at a far cheaper club as he got there

[Cruie]

Out of curiousity does the FFSA or FFA provide any annual grants to clubs?

I'm involved with a district cricket club, of which there are 13 in Adelaide, and SACA ( South Australian Cricket Association) provide an annual grant of $50k. Its quite a long process to get the grant and you must justify what the $s will be spent on, but if done properly it is received annually.
These district clubs are the pathway for future state and Australian cricketers, therefore the grants are generally spent on coaching, facilities and equipment.
We also do loads of fundraising, gain sponsors and have excellent ground share agreements to keep subs down.
I assume community cricket clubs also receive annual grants from SACA.
Might explain one reason why the subs for district cricket clubs range between $200 and $300 from juniors to seniors.

Until the higher bodies start pumping some money into the clubs the subs won't come down unfortunately.
Although I dont see the point in a new kit each year for the players, surely sponsors can be signed to 2 or 3 year deals if thats the issue and does it matter if a name is on the back ?

As far as I know, the FFSA does not provide grants (outside of discounted/free "coaching courses" and the like). And I'm not at all certain the larger FFA does, either? If they do, I've a feeling it will be to the clubs high-up in their respective state-structures. The FFSA (and I assume, indirectly, FFA) does point it's member clubs at grants that are available from other sources, but has no money of it's own to give out.

(I should say, that probably is equivalent to the 13-SACA Clubs in state cricket. And I wonder do "Community CCs" get grants from their sporting body ... or do they have to apply to the same pools we do?)

Soccer clubs apply in the same pool as other "clubs" (not just sporting): state and federal government, Woolies and all the rest of it. You can attract money this way, if you can fulfill a raft of criteria, but your club will probably need someone with good experience of the grants application process. What you say appears to be as important as what you propose to do. I'd go on and on about the Star-Club-thing (almost a requirement to get gov grants), and on how much work it adds to the administration of community-clubs (for want of a better phrase) ... but that's probably best in another topic somewhere.

I agree with notion that life is tough if money doesn't trickle down. I often ask myself what a sponsor gets, if they agree to help our club (it's a tough sell, because it is tough to sell!). How much value is there in a two or three hundred families? But then I'd say the same back in the UK. I always imagined - as salaries went out of control - that Player Unions would come up with a "Membership Tax" (as some other, "professional bodies" do) to help fund the education of those coming through the age-groups/skill-levels. To my knowledge, it's never happened, though.

For example: Our club just purchased and installed new goals (before the old sets fell on someone!). Two sets of "in ground" full sized goals, one set of in-ground "futsal sized" goals and one set of full-sized portable goals (plus nets and fixings and wotnot). Not much change from $20k. No grants (received, nor asked for). We had to save up (for a very long time). Shirts are a bit easier, so long as we find 2 or 3 generous sponsors to help us out (over 3 or 4 years). I think it would be fair to say that getting all of those sponsors to continue to pay for "the life of the agreement" has proved just a little bit more difficult (but we factor that in) ;)



Monkey-Nuts
I accept that only by paying will a club attract highly experienced coaches, and that "community clubs" are very unlikely to be able to do that (a new shirt, every 4 or 5 years, is hard enough!). But if the only clubs in existance were the ones who could afford to pay full-time-wages to coaches, there would be a great lack of places for kids who wanted to play (and may or may not be any good at it).

I'd be interested in some metrics, if anyone from the "big-clubs" can/wants to provide it? How many full time professional players has your club produced in the last 20 years? What is the average cost-per-pro-player that your club has operated at, over that time?

[johnydep]

For those saying that the AHJSA doesn't provide quality coaches, and that the kids use it as 'just a kickatound', you obviously haven't been out there to see.

I have had my son through clubs which charge astronomical fees, and I can tell you he is getting the same FFSA coaching now at a far cheaper club as he got there

I don't know how the AHJSA works; does your fee include Club membership for the family? With voting rights at the AGM? Free entry and carparking to home games? Player Presentation dinner and medal/trophy? Are all the coaches given free monthly coaching courses and paid FFSA licenses? Does the club employ specialised Development Coach/coaches to oversee player development? Are the coaches subsidised/paid for their time and effort? Are the Managers subsidised for their time and personal costs? Is the club looking at ways and means to get their junior players ready to play in State teams, Development teams, Senior teams?

If so - well done to them.

[Bomber]

For those saying that the AHJSA doesn't provide quality coaches, and that the kids use it as 'just a kickatound', you obviously haven't been out there to see.

I have had my son through clubs which charge astronomical fees, and I can tell you he is getting the same FFSA coaching now at a far cheaper club as he got there

Small sided football is just that - its what comes next is the key. And of course it will be cheaper if you dont get what the rest can get.

As for "astronomical fees" - care to explain what these fees actually were and what you got for it (or should I say didnt get)? And, do you believe clubs should bear the costs over and above what it takes to break even for each child?

Its quite clear the AHJSA have cut out much of the expenses passed on to each child as opposed to FFSA clubs, so enjoy what you get for the pennies put in. End of, you get the bare minimum! Happy with that, well then all is well isnt it.

[redmum]

For those saying that the AHJSA doesn't provide quality coaches, and that the kids use it as 'just a kickatound', you obviously haven't been out there to see.

I have had my son through clubs which charge astronomical fees, and I can tell you he is getting the same FFSA coaching now at a far cheaper club as he got there

I don't know how the AHJSA works; does your fee include Club membership for the family?
Yes
With voting rights at the AGM?
Yes
Free entry and carparking to home games?
Yes
Player Presentation dinner and medal/trophy?
Yes, it's actually a barbq..it's for the kids, after all..a 3 course dinner would be a waste of money as kids are more than happy with a free barbq and soft drinks/icecreams
Are all the coaches given free monthly coaching courses and paid FFSA licenses?
Unknown, but they would have to have their FFSA licence
Does the club employ specialised Development Coach/coaches to oversee player development?
Yes
Are the coaches subsidised/paid for their time and effort?
Not as far as im aware, at Junior level anyway.
Are the Managers subsidised for their time and personal costs?
As above
Is the club looking at ways and means to get their junior players ready to play in State teams, Development teams, Senior teams?
Yes, my son is doing a 15 week Development clinic at the moment which was organised by the AHJSA and promoted heavily at his club.

If so - well done to them.

[Ricky Tan]

Horses for courses. All good if the kids want a kick around and just some fun - great! But if any player wants to get more serious, well pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys (as coaches).
I applaud the offer though. Quite obviously if you dont give the kids kits, training gear, decent ongoing tuition, decent facilities then expenses can be kept down. Although I wont hold my breath that a swag of decent players will come through the system.

+1.

+2

[johnydep]

For those saying that the AHJSA doesn't provide quality coaches, and that the kids use it as 'just a kickatound', you obviously haven't been out there to see.

I have had my son through clubs which charge astronomical fees, and I can tell you he is getting the same FFSA coaching now at a far cheaper club as he got there

I don't know how the AHJSA works; does your fee include Club membership for the family?
Yes
With voting rights at the AGM?
Yes
Free entry and carparking to home games?
Yes
Player Presentation dinner and medal/trophy?
Yes, it's actually a barbq..it's for the kids, after all..a 3 course dinner would be a waste of money as kids are more than happy with a free barbq and soft drinks/icecreams
Are all the coaches given free monthly coaching courses and paid FFSA licenses?
Unknown, but they would have to have their FFSA licence
Does the club employ specialised Development Coach/coaches to oversee player development?
Yes
Are the coaches subsidised/paid for their time and effort?
Not as far as im aware, at Junior level anyway.
Are the Managers subsidised for their time and personal costs?
As above
Is the club looking at ways and means to get their junior players ready to play in State teams, Development teams, Senior teams?
Yes, my son is doing a 15 week Development clinic at the moment which was organised by the AHJSA and promoted heavily at his club.

If so - well done to them.

I don't know how the AHJSA works; does your fee include Club membership for the family?
Yes What is the cost of Club Membership?
With voting rights at the AGM?
Yes When is it?
Free entry and carparking to home games?
Yes Great; how much is entry?
Player Presentation dinner and medal/trophy?
Yes, it's actually a barbq..it's for the kids, after all..a 3 course dinner would be a waste of money as kids are more than happy with a free barbq and soft drinks/icecreams We did not receive any complaints from our U12 - U17 players about their 3 course meal + cakes, they actually enjoyed it. It's also a way to make them feel part of a professional football system.
Are all the coaches given free monthly coaching courses and paid FFSA licenses?
Unknown, but they would have to have their FFSA licence Do they? Our club, being part of the FFSA, we must have licensed coaches. Our Club pay for the coaches to get their required qualification.
Does the club employ specialised Development Coach/coaches to oversee player development?
Yes Fantastic. Who is it? Does he/she cover all the age groups, including the Senior structure?
Are the coaches subsidised/paid for their time and effort?
Not as far as im aware, at Junior level anyway. Our clubs subsidises all the junior managers, because they have a job that involves using their mobile phone, paper, ink, extra learning, etc.
Are the Managers subsidised for their time and personal costs?
As above As above.
Is the club looking at ways and means to get their junior players ready to play in State teams, Development teams, Senior teams?
Yes, my son is doing a 15 week Development clinic at the moment which was organised by the AHJSA and promoted heavily at his club.Our club has a series of coordinators, that ensure that all the coaches are working on the same page. They ensure that there are monthly coaching sessions, they show all the current curriculum from the FFA and FFSA, they coordinate with the senior structure, they ensure players are assess and given opportunities, ensure players experience senior football, etc.

I don't know any clubs that go out to defraud people. Clubs are just like any organisation; there is costs involved, some are better at managing those costs but there are still costs. Just like a hamburger, you can get $1.00 burgers and you can get $20.00 burgers. A Fish and Chip shop owner might have no ambition to expand, so just cover costs. Another owner might want to offer better services and facilities, so plans for future expansion.

Stop thinking that people are too stupid to make their own choices, and that the people running clubs are out to rip everyone off.

Go to the AGM's and join the Committee!

[Bomber]

Re ^, I dont think you are on the same page regarding the free parking question, which is only applicable during a senior (FFSA) game. Naturally when the kids are playing, parking is free anywhere (unless you park illegally). Apart from The Hills Hawks, the only senior teams in the hills play in amateur leagues. Apples/oranges.
I'm still keen to know what these "astronomical fees" are/were and what may have been charged over and above break even cost.

[Cruie]

Just to be clear, the AHJSA is an affiliate - a sub body, if you like - of the FFSA.

Individual clubs (Hahndorf, Stirling - both of them, Mt Barker and 10 or 11 others ... the full list is on the website) are seperate legal entities. Basically, the FFSA hands the administraion of "Junior Leagues" in "The Hills" to the AHJSA, who administer the age-group-leagues on behalf of its member-clubs.

http://www.ahjsa.asn.au

To the extent every player registered for the FFSA is a "Member" of the FFSA (and so FFA), all Junior players at clubs under the AHJSA banner are members of the AHJSA (and so FFSA and then FFA). I don't know the full history (I wasn't over here), but I believe the AHJSA was setup to organise Junior soccer in the Hills, leaving FFSA with more time to organise "down on the plains". I think most of the logic behind the decision was kids from the more remote-parts of the Hills don't need to travel down to the plains - well, get their parents to take them down to the plains - for a game of footy on a weekend.


As for the other questions: All of those would be down to individual clubs (apart from one, which I've listed right at the end).

So the list for Mt Barker would be:

Does your fee include Club membership for the family?
Parents/Guardians have voting rights until the player is 18 (at least I think 18, not 16, but I would need to check to confirm). We also have "family discounts", so 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... kids get cheaper subs (though not by much)

With voting rights at the AGM?
Yes (see parent/guardian above)

Free entry and carparking to home games?
Yes - Parking is always free ... Juniors, Seniors, whatever

Player Presentation dinner and medal/trophy?
Similar to redmum above; yes to an Awards Night and medal/trophy. No to a dinner (they'd never sit still that long!) but yes to a free BBQ

Are all the coaches given free monthly coaching courses and paid FFSA licenses?
FFSA Coaching Courses/Licenses (one or two run per season) are paid for - for a coach at any AHJSA Club - by the AHJSA (discounted by the FFSA, maybe?). Although I am not sure how far up the ladder you can get on a subsidised basis, but the "Community Coaching Pathway" is definately supported/funded and is a requirement (by/of FFSA/AHJSA)

Does the club employ specialised Development Coach/coaches to oversee player development?
Coaches look after a team within an age group (we have 3 U12 teams, for example, and so 3 coaches). Each team coach is responsible for his/her own programme and the development of "their" kids; although we do have a central coaching-co-ordinator who "looks after" all coaches ... We are looking at a project to provide more "centralised advice" to our "team-coaches" with the ultimate aim of a "manual of ideas" that should help formalise and standardise some of the training.

Are the coaches subsidised/paid for their time and effort?
No, Junior coaches are volunteers. That said, some of our senior-players coach a junior-team, of ours, and get a heavily-discounted subscription (for their senior football) in return for their efforts. Player-Coaches for our lower-grade Senior Teams get 100% discount from their subs. Our Senior Head-Coach and A-Team coach are paid positions ... but to date every HC or ATC we have "employed" has returned their payment - in full - to the club, each year (in fact, has never drawn their payment) - I should note IF they were also registered to play, HC and ATC would get "free subs".

Are the Managers subsidised for their time and personal costs?
No, Junior Team Managers are volunteers. The Senior side of the club relies on team-coaches to do the "paper work" (manager positions don't exist)

Is the club looking at ways and means to get their junior players ready to play in State teams, Development teams, Senior teams?
As well as the 15 week Development clinic menytioned by redmum. There are age-group based Hills Rep Teams (they play in the Country Tournament and the Metro Tournament, each year). From the Rep-Teams there is (supposedly) a pathway to State (though it all gets a bit confusing with Hills Hawks and JPL ... quite a number of our kids also play JPL - and get a discount from our club fees, because they do, though not a big one)

If so - well done to them.
Thanks very much ;)


Note: FFA/FFSA Coaching License (Community Coaching Pathway) is mandatory (with a grace period for new coaches) for all coaches at all clubs under the AHJSA banner (as far as I know).

Oh, and Mt Barker Seniors play in the CSL, an FFSA Affiliate, not in the amateur league (just for the record); although I believe all other Hills-based Senior Teams (except the Hawks) play in the SAASL.



And so, back to my question ... or even just the first half of it, if the last bit is too confidential?
How many full time professional players has your club produced in the last 20 years? What is the average cost-per-pro-player that your club has operated at, over that time?

[give us a break]

I was for many years a coach in the Hills and a committee member of both, my club and the AHJSA.
I think, one has to clearly understand and differentiate between AHJSA (which is the grassroot level, so has no trials and is based on participation) and the FFSA administered competions which, particularly in A-Division is more elitist. As a coach in the Hills, when spotting a talented player I always suggested to the parents and the player to try their luck in a more professional environment such as the FFSA based leagues. You cannot compare AHJSA, which is similar to School soccer, to the FFSA teams.
However, I am sure there are ways to lower the fees. After 5 or 6 years with being issued 2 strips a year, one has to ask oneselves whether this is really nessecary. I suspect it has to do with the senior's sponsors wanting to see their logos on all the strips, including the juniors.

[Cruie]

I was for many years a coach in the Hills and a committee member of both, my club and the AHJSA.
I think, one has to clearly understand and differentiate between AHJSA (which is the grassroot level, so has no trials and is based on participation) and the FFSA administered competions which, particularly in A-Division is more elitist. As a coach in the Hills, when spotting a talented player I always suggested to the parents and the player to try their luck in a more professional environment such as the FFSA based leagues. You cannot compare AHJSA, which is similar to School soccer, to the FFSA teams.
However, I am sure there are ways to lower the fees. After 5 or 6 years with being issued 2 strips a year, one has to ask oneselves whether this is really nessecary. I suspect it has to do with the senior's sponsors wanting to see their logos on all the strips, including the juniors.

Yeah, good post.

(we also would recommend, to parents, that a kid - or a younger senior - with the ability, might want to look at furthering their skills with one of the "bigger clubs". Though we are mindful to mention the possible costs. We've also seen it the other way; players turn up from those bigger clubs when the "workload" put on them has become unwanted or "too much". Year-12 seeming to be one of the popular "pain-points" for that)

Like I said a page back, experienced quality coaches are very probably going to want paying and from what I've read here a lot of the cost difference is going to be down to the cost of those coaches. Those coaches will want good-facilities as well as a "salary", so it isn't just a direct-cost.

The point of the number of kit changes is also interesting. Back home pro-teams (particularly premier league) are critised for releasing two or three strips each couple of seasons, because it is seen solely as a way to increase revenue from supporters, who "must" have the latest kit. Maybe this is a similar thing, but - as you say, guab, - as much to keep the sponsors happy (and their money rolling in), as to increase fees to parents (though I guess there must be some "contribution" from shirt sales)?

I'm not suggesting Community Clubs are somehow better ... I am suggesting they are different ... But the difference in fees charged (apparently/allegedly) by some clubs compared to others - for what is in essence the same end-experience - is surprising (to me, at least).



(and I wish someone would answer my question - that's the important metric ... how much of a tangible benefit kids/families see - or have the potential to see - from the higher fees)

[Steve#4]

I was for many years a coach in the Hills and a committee member of both, my club and the AHJSA.
I think, one has to clearly understand and differentiate between AHJSA (which is the grassroot level, so has no trials and is based on participation) and the FFSA administered competions which, particularly in A-Division is more elitist. As a coach in the Hills, when spotting a talented player I always suggested to the parents and the player to try their luck in a more professional environment such as the FFSA based leagues. You cannot compare AHJSA, which is similar to School soccer, to the FFSA teams.
However, I am sure there are ways to lower the fees. After 5 or 6 years with being issued 2 strips a year, one has to ask oneselves whether this is really nessecary. I suspect it has to do with the senior's sponsors wanting to see their logos on all the strips, including the juniors.

Yeah, good post.

(we also would recommend, to parents, that a kid - or a younger senior - with the ability, might want to look at furthering their skills with one of the "bigger clubs". Though we are mindful to mention the possible costs. We've also seen it the other way; players turn up from those bigger clubs when the "workload" put on them has become unwanted or "too much". Year-12 seeming to be one of the popular "pain-points" for that)

Like I said a page back, experienced quality coaches are very probably going to want paying and from what I've read here a lot of the cost difference is going to be down to the cost of those coaches. Those coaches will want good-facilities as well as a "salary", so it isn't just a direct-cost.

The point of the number of kit changes is also interesting. Back home pro-teams (particularly premier league) are critised for releasing two or three strips each couple of seasons, because it is seen solely as a way to increase revenue from supporters, who "must" have the latest kit. Maybe this is a similar thing, but - as you say, guab, - as much to keep the sponsors happy (and their money rolling in), as to increase fees to parents (though I guess there must be some "contribution" from shirt sales)?

I'm not suggesting Community Clubs are somehow better ... I am suggesting they are different ... But the difference in fees charged (apparently/allegedly) by some clubs compared to others - for what is in essence the same end-experience - is surprising (to me, at least).


(and I wish someone would answer my question - that's the important metric ... how much of a tangible benefit kids/families see - or have the potential to see - from the higher fees)

I would love this answered as well.......Especially the ratio of those that turn professional to those that don't make it.

Better off putting that money away every year for most kids and paying for their Uni degree or a deposit on a house (another good start for Teens) and letting them do what kids do and have a kick with their mates..

[Bomber]

Croydon/Polonia first senior team appearance after being brought up through fed system: J.Porter, R.Visconte, O.Malik, B Hassell, B.Launders are some I can think of, am sure there are more. Before that (over 20 years ago) J.Kosmina, V.Bozanic, H.Kolecki, R,Romanowicz who were brought up through the Fed system and since played professionally.
There's heaps from other fed clubs, but I wont steal their thunder and let them list their own.

As for average cost per player, Johnydep can help me out on this as he is a bit closer to the figures but I imagine whatever the fees are, less membership, are the costs per player!

[johnydep]

(and I wish someone would answer my question - that's the important metric ... how much of a tangible benefit kids/families see - or have the potential to see - from the higher fees)

Very hard question to answer, people have different views and ambitions; some just want to play, some want to reach the highest level of their age group, some want to play senior football and some want make a profession out of the sport - be that as a player, coach, etc.

Some of the young players I know, have had or have ambition to:

• win a cup finals
  finish top of their league
  make the State squad
  make the State Futsal squad
  make the NTC squad
  Make the ASI squad
  play senior football
  play A-League Youth
  play A-League mens
  play overseas

Did playing at an FFSA club benefit their ambitions? Most certainly.

You'll find that the FFA and FFSA will put more emphasis on playing in FFSA clubs, it's been like that for several years and will continue to increase in relevance.

Playing at the highest and most competitive level is very important for player development, especially for players that have an ambition.

Keeping a club competitive and at the highest level will cost more than playing at the social or amateur levels. Players and parents are informed of prices before they sign up, we also mention other leagues with lower costs.



ps. our coaches must have the highest license available for their age group, the community license is only applicable for SSF coaches.

[Cruie]

Yes, it's a difficult question - and I agree what a parent wants for their 10-year-old (and pays to get) might well not turn out to be what that 10-year-old wants for themselves, when they reach 17/18 years-old.

But I think it is the best - probably the only - measure parents can use, for weighing whether the increased costs are "worth it".

The FFSA pyramid always wrecks my head, a little bit. From the coaching badges to the ladder of progression for players.

Community Clubs don't really seem to fit into it at all. Community-Coaching seems to be a bit of a dead-end sideline, off on it's own. I'm not really sure why? And the same is also true - in my head, at least - for progression as a player from a Community Club to the bigger-boys.

As I said, we recommend bigger-clubs (to be fair, given our location, usually the Hawks) to parents of kids who look to have a real talent ... But that's not really progression; it's a private thing we do as a "duty of care" to our members.

The Hills Rep Teams would appear to offer a stepping stone, but I'm not so sure they actually do? Hills Rep Teams are selected from all AHJSA Clubs, or supposed to be ... Though the selection process appears to leave a lot to be desired - Indeed, as far as I know, it's pretty non-existent (despite peoples' best efforts to change that). I guess one of the Rep players might be spotted, at one of the tournaments; but that's not exactly progression, either.

In all, as a new(ish) arrival to Aus, it all seems pretty fragmented the further down the ladder you are?